Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield

Should single-leg exercises be done before or after squats in a workout? Which is more neurologically demanding; single leg because of the balance requirement or squats because of the potentially greater load? Thanks in advance.
matt

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Jeffrey Vaughn
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Friday, October 7, 2005 11:25 AM

The greater load always wins...why single leg exercises???
If you are squatting and you admit there is no better leg exercise, then why do a single leg to follow it up??

Jeffrey Vaughn

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Todd Wilson
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Friday, October 7, 2005 11:32 AM

It depends. Generally before. Now, let me explain why while those that think you have to squat first every workout are going through there seizures.
For one thing, there isn't a law that says you have to squat first. Seriously, when training for strength they should be done first because generally single leg movements involve an upright torso and do not tax the low back musculature very much. The squat definitely does. If squats are done first, the ability of the low back to stabilize the torso during the unilateral movements is significantly lessened and this could potentially cause injury.

Now, while unilateral movements are great, I rarely use/recommend them at the same time as the squat. I don't see the point. I typically use unilateral movements earlier in the periodized process while prioritizing the posterior chain. When you're on a posterior chain priortization cycle few athletes are going to be able to handle squats with all of the deadlift and good mornings variations, but you still have to work the quads. In fact, you're often having to bring up the VMO at the same time, therefore unilateral work (i.e., variations of the step up and split squat) are beneficial in working the legs, but not the lower back.

Now, one time in which unilateral is beneficial with squats is during a hypertrophy phase. Used at higher reps AFTER squats various unilateral movements are great when used at higher reps. Now, what about the concern of low back stability I mentioned above? Well, assuming your using hypertrophy methods and are working hard on the squats, you're not going to have a lot left in the tank so to speak and the load will most often be lower after squats and with higher reps. Therefore, injury poetential is much lower.

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M Baron
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Friday, October 7, 2005 11:44 AM

Thanks for the responses, Todd and Jeffrey. I generally don't do any unilateral work, or squat assistance (I don't like many leg exercises, except the squat) but thought I might give it a try for some variety.

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Todd Wilson
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Friday, October 7, 2005 11:51 AM

If you never do them, it's one of the best ways to bring up the squat.

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Chris Doyle
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Friday, October 7, 2005 12:17 PM

I defer to greater experience in terms of increasing powerlfiting totals, although Doc advocates 1 leg squats aka pistols. For me 1 leg work was a good way of evening the strength imbalances in my legs, left leg was significantly stronger. I could them weighted too, when my lower back was a bit beat and still enhance strength, while recovering. Don't fool yourself into thinking you very strong at other movements just because you have a very high squat. OK you gus are but doing the same thing all the time may lead to overuse injuries, especially for guys who do high /normal volume. IMO more exercises and more rounded development will help you in the longterm.

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Todd Wilson
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Friday, October 7, 2005 12:32 PM

Chris, you bring up some excellent points. I've said the same thing before, and particularly because of the lack of attention to muscular balance have criticised some elements of the Westside system. I even went to far as to predict certain injuries that are more likely potential using the system for too long.
Right now, Dave Tate is essentially being rehabbed by Alwyn Cosgrove because Dave had gotten in such bad shape, they've been chronicling Dave's workouts and progress through a series of articles that have been very interesting.

I chain is only as strong as it's weakest link, and that link will eventually break. It's not a question of if, it's just when.

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Jeffrey Vaughn
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Friday, October 7, 2005 12:48 PM

Steroids cause physical changes in muscle, tendon, and ligaments, making them more susceptible to failure under load or repetitive use.
It is pretty easy to predict injuries at WSB...it is not as much to do with imbalances as one may think.

Jeffrey Vaughn

http://www.geocities.com/vaughnpower/1.html

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Todd Wilson
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Friday, October 7, 2005 1:26 PM

Steroids cause physical changes in muscle, tendon, and ligaments, making them more susceptible to failure under load or repetitive use.
### This is an overstated misconception about steroid use. Besides, let's assume it's true. This wouldn't prevent someone from doing an overhead press. The reason a lot of them can't overhead press without pain is gross muscular imbalances.

It is pretty easy to predict injuries at WSB...it is not as much to do with imbalances as one may think.

### Yes it is. In most of their workouts there is a great deal of specialization. Which there is nothing wrong with in and of itself. But they simply move from one specilization cycle to another without ever looking at little things that make big differences. It's akin to increasing engine size, horse power output, torque, etc. and never changing the oil. As you make those improvements, performance steadily inceases and the world is a great place, but all of a sudden one day you're going down the road and the engine locks up.

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Jeffrey Vaughn
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Friday, October 7, 2005 1:37 PM

You are downplaying the effects of steroid use on body tissues.
Congratulations, you just lost your expert status when it comes to effects of steroids on the sport of powerlifting.

Steroids have everything to do with the frequency of injury at WSB. I have lifted with the WS crew in the IPA just down the road from WSB. I have had conversations with WS lifters in a capacity that you have not. What are you doing?

Jeffrey Vaughn

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phil elliott
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Friday, October 7, 2005 1:59 PM

I have read that website for a while now. It seems that a few of those guys are going to back off a little, lighten their body weight due to kidney problems, etc. I am willing to bet the kidney problems are not due to the body weight itself. So many of those guys are broken right now. (At least that is how it looks). I just don't think that the body can be pushed so fast (steroids) for so long without breaking down. (torn pecs, serious back injuries, etc). Sorry for the ramble.

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phil elliott
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Friday, October 7, 2005 2:00 PM

Also, they even make fun of "the bloat." Is this bloat from creatine? I doubt it.

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Todd Wilson
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Friday, October 7, 2005 2:10 PM

You are downplaying the effects of steroid use on body tissues.
### No, you are overstating them. It's like claiming they cause roid rage as well. Spend some time talking with steroid users, visit some forums where steroids use is rampant. Injury incidence is not any greater. Injuries happen because of program design flaws, mistakes in technique, and bone head decisions in the weight room.

Congratulations, you just lost your expert status when it comes to effects of steroids on the sport of powerlifting.

### Screw it, I never claimed to be an expert, especially with respect to powerlifting.

Steroids have everything to do with the frequency of injury at WSB. I have lifted with the WS crew in the IPA just down the road from WSB. I have had conversations with WS lifters in a capacity that you have not.

### Yeah, so? I have had conversations with several experts on drug use that I'm certain you have not. Steroids causing injuries is overstated media bs. Often, people misdiagnose the reasons for their injury. Having rehabbed a bunch of people, 90% of them think they are injured from soemthing other than what caused the injury. For example, people routinely wine about the overhead press causing shoulder problems. This is absurd! However, their shoulders were already so screwed up that when they started overhead pressing, all of their problems manifested themselves in pain. Conclusion, overhead presses are dangerous.

### Now, steroids use can at times contribute to problems, but 99% of the time any injury is for the reasons I mentioned above. Steroids can make tendons and ligaments stronger, they definitely assist in making muscle stronger. Uusally what happens when steroid use contributes, is because of program design that is often mis-guided. Some times, use can allow a muscle to strengthen faster than a tendon, but again, while this is often stated as a hazard of using drugs, it just doesn't occur that often in users.

What are you doing?

### I'm periodically checking the forum while trying to learn to play Knockin' on Heavens Door by Dylan. Was that what you wanted to know or did you mean something else by the question?

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Mourad Tariq
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Friday, October 7, 2005 3:01 PM

"Congratulations, you just lost your expert status when it comes to effects of steroids on the sport of powerlifting."
- I know little about the sport of powerlifting, but to blame the injuries at west side barbell on steroids is specious at best. The injuries that you mentioned, are long term nagging injuries to the back to to joints. Injuries like the inability to shoulder press or to squat without pain in the knees or back are not linked to steroid abuse.

The few injuries that are scientifically linked to steroid abuse include acute injuries like a tricep tendon rupture, pec tears, or even bilateral quadriceps tears are horrible injuries, but they are not what is being incurred at west side.

In fact different steroids have both positive and negative effects on joint and tendon health. The argument could be made that without steroids that work load that WSB athletes take on would cause greater damage to their bodies.

WSB barbell athletes are lifting tremendous amounts of weights and hurting themselves. Steroid use could be a factor either way, but their are many steroid users, especially power athletes (track and field) who have less an incidence of injury thanks to steroid use. So, WSB athletes are doing something else wrong besides JUST using drugs.

Finally, I am no advocate of steroid abuse, especially not by amatuers, but to report only on one side of the argument and make claims as facts is not honest and not true.

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phil elliott
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Friday, October 7, 2005 3:05 PM

What about JL Holdsworth?

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Todd Wilson
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Friday, October 7, 2005 3:41 PM

Very good points Mourad.

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Jeffrey Vaughn
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Friday, October 7, 2005 4:03 PM

"Screw it, I never claimed to be an expert, especially with respect to powerlifting."
We do agree on this point...

Jeffrey Vaughn

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Todd Wilson
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Friday, October 7, 2005 4:14 PM

Well, you are the one that claimed I had "lost" "expert status."
If we apply basic logic, to have lost expert status, I would have had (at least in your eyes) to have held expert status.

Sorry I didn't live up to your expectations. Have any thoughts on the discussion at hand? Or do you want the pissin' to begin now?

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M Baron
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Friday, October 7, 2005 4:39 PM

If you never do them, it's one of the best ways to bring up the squat.
##Ah, then I'll work some unilater stuff in...I've done the test you recommended for determing VMO weakness and I'm not weak there, so perhaps that rules out Peterson Step-ups?...Maybe I should be doing Split Squats?...I have enough flexibility. Long term goal is to squat 500lbs...currently squatting a World Record 440lbs:).

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M Baron
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Friday, October 7, 2005 4:40 PM

...I guess that should read UNILATERAL STUFF...

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Todd Wilson
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Friday, October 7, 2005 5:13 PM

Ah, then I'll work some unilater stuff in...I've done the test you recommended for determing VMO weakness and I'm not weak there, so perhaps that rules out Peterson Step-ups?...Maybe I should be doing Split Squats?...I have enough flexibility. Long term goal is to squat 500lbs...currently squatting a World Record 440lbs:).
### Well, what I would do would be to go on a low back specialization routine, and simply perform the unilateral stuff first in the workout. I like to use a type of step up and a type of split squat. If your VMO isn't weak, you can still benefit from Peterson step ups. I've done them holding 80 pound DBs. Most forms of both step ups and split squats recruit it extensively. Just pick a type of each and after 3-6 workouts switch to a different variation.

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M Baron
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Friday, October 7, 2005 8:00 PM

Well, what I would do would be to go on a low back specialization routine, and simply perform the unilateral stuff first in the workout. I like to use a type of step up and a type of split squat. If your VMO isn't weak, you can still benefit from Peterson step ups. I've done them holding 80 pound DBs. Most forms of both step ups and split squats recruit it extensively. Just pick a type of each and after 3-6 workouts switch to a different variation.
##Thanks again. Exactly what I was looking for.

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D. D.
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Friday, October 7, 2005 9:46 PM

how do you select a proper height for a step-up stool?
i injured my shoulder and can`t hold a bar to do squats so i`ve been doing step-ups on a standard bench, plus lunge-walking.

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Boris Mifune
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Saturday, October 8, 2005 12:32 AM

Hmmm, I'm not sure about WS, but as for myself, I am currently rehabbing a hamstring injury that basically spread to my adductor and lower back. I firmly believe that if I had been rotating exercises AT ALL, it could have been avoided.
Currently, in my rehab, I'm using single leg DLs (holding DBs). It's a great exercise.

Normally, I'd agree w. Jeff about the exercise order, but if you are in the off-season and prioritizing different things, I don't see the harm in doing unilateral movements first from time to time. Changing exercise order is a quick and simple way to change the training stimuli.

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Rod Piper
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Saturday, October 8, 2005 2:56 AM

Squats proceed Lunges.
Meaning if you are going to squat and want to do lunges then they should follow squats.

Alternate reasons - Pre-exhaustion of muscle groups and fatique, if you are going to superset then the stratergy would be to rest 3 mins or so before moving from squats to lunges or of one has to do squats then work the upper body with biceps - triceps then proceed to lunges etc....

Hope this helps

Rod Piper

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Kenny Croxdale
User "When the Back Says NO and the Legs Say GO."
Saturday, October 8, 2005 9:48 AM

Todd,
Good point on single leg movements being less taxing on the lower back comparted to traditional squats. This is one of the advantages of exercise like step ups with a barbell or dumbbells. They allow you to place more work on the legs and less on the back. Spassov/Todd went into this in "BULGARIAN LEG TRAINING SECRETS" [http://www.overspeedtraining.com/legsart.htm]

Another interesting article on this is Hollie Evette's "When the Back Says NO and the Legs Say GO." Evette noted the limiting factor in a squat is usually the lower back. It gives out long before the legs do. Evette recommended exercises to allow one to maximize leg development by taking the weak link out of the equation, the lower back. Evette was one of the great 242 powerlifters in the 1980s and is a strength coach in Oklahoma.

In regard to the sequence of exercise, Charles Poliquin had a good article on that. Poliquin recommendation was to work from the most stable exercises on down to the most unstable ones.

The stabilizers are the limiting factor in a movement (as with the lower back in a squat)in a free weight movement. The primary muscle involved are never completely taxed. Thus, Poliquin recommendation.

Poliquin would have a athlete do decending exercises,from stable to unstable. An example of this for the legs would be the leg press (most stable), squats, step up on a bench, step up on a wobble board.

The most stable exercise allowing the primary muscle involved to be full overloaded. The most unstable exercise allowing the stabilizers to be fully trained.

Since the stabilizer muscles are one of the limiting factor in a movement, they need to be trained as well.

Kenny Croxdale

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Kenny Croxdale
User ...a quick easy answer to a problem.
Saturday, October 8, 2005 11:09 AM

Mourad makes some good points. You can't place all of the blame on Westside or steriods. That's one of the problems people have. They want a quick easy answer to a problem.
Life doesn't work that way. It is usually a combination of factors, never one alone.

In regard to steriods use, initially fast gains are made in muscular strength not in the connective tissue. Eventually the connective tissue will strengthen.

However, during the initial phase the conncetive tissue is susceptible moreso to injury. The connective tissue cannot handle the muscular load.

I suspect (meaning I am guessing) that same could be true of creatine use. Muscular strength gains exceed the strength of the connective tissue.

Kenny Croxdale

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Mike T
User ...a quick easy answer to a problem.
Saturday, October 8, 2005 2:50 PM

A comment was made earlier about Dave Tate's injuries as well as other injuries at Westside. To blame these on steroids alone is not bright. Ask Dave. He'll tell you that he was busy with work, family, etc and he did only squat, bench, deadlift movement patterns. He lost his mobility. It was actually pretty horrible if you read the articles. He says it was because he stopped with the extra work that he got so beat up. He stopped using alternate movement patterns. It's also important to note that he's been doing this for YEAR (25 or so years of powerlifting exclusively). He was not rehabbing injuries properly. That's what he attributes his injuries to.
Jeffrey, I don't mean this as an attack on your system, but what jacked Dave up sounds similar to what you're doing (albiet a more frequent program design). There was nothing but the main lifts (and for Dave, SOME assistance work that mirrored the main lifts). I know you don't get "beat up," but I'm just saying that you should make sure that you don't lose mobility as you keep doing this system for years and years.

I don't know why WSB systems get so much flak. If the workload is too high for you, do less. If it's not enough, do more. It's an infinitely flexible system that is based in science and practical application. Some of the WSB lifters use steroids, but many do not. I am a lifter who uses the WSB systems that does not use steroids. There are many others (I've trained with some and competed with others) that do not too.

Some WSB lifters get injured, true, and at first it seems like there's more WSB lifters getting injured than lifters from other gyms. But I would guess that it's about the same percentage if you look at it over time. It's just that there are more high-profile lifters from WSB than from any other gym, so when they get injured, it seems like more than it is.

In some ways, I feel like WSB is the NY Yankees of powerlifting. You either love 'em or hate 'em. If you hate 'em, you probably don't know why.

And Jeffrey, you seem to be misled on the dangers of A.S. You might want to do some more well-rounded research. I don't know exactly what you've done on the topic, but you seem to have been misled by a bunch of media garbage.

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Mourad Tariq
User ...a quick easy answer to a problem.
Saturday, October 8, 2005 4:58 PM

"In regard to steriods use, initially fast gains are made in muscular strength not in the connective tissue. Eventually the connective tissue will strengthen.
However, during the initial phase the conncetive tissue is susceptible moreso to injury. The connective tissue cannot handle the muscular load.

I suspect (meaning I am guessing) that same could be true of creatine use. Muscular strength gains exceed the strength of the connective tissue. "

- Great points. The fact is muscular gains are made before connective tissue. Connective Tissue (and even bones) do hypertrophy from weight training, but it is much slower. Therefore any training that allows an athlete to progress rapidly is more dangerous (as far as connective tissue injuries) than one where an athlete progresses very slowly. This is actually one of the reasons many MD's don't like weight training and advocate jogging or walking instead. If you follow this line of thinking, the saftey of a program can be assessed by how bad the results are.

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Kenny Croxdale
User "Stupid is as stupid does."
Sunday, October 9, 2005 10:55 AM

MD's don't know much about weight training. So, beware of their advice.
In regard to running vs weight training. Running produces impact fores of up to three times one's bodyweight. So, I don't see why anyone would consider it safer in some respects.

"...the saftey of a program can be assessed by how bad the results are." Good point but I'd take a step back and say the safety of the program is dependent on whoever wrote the program. Like Forrest Gump said,"Stupid is as stupid does."

Unfortunately, a lot of my brilliant ideas were more in the stupid catagory. I consider myself one of the real experts in all the things one should not do. However, working on new ideas is like panning for gold. You shift through a lot of rocks before you find a nugget of gold.

Kenny Croxdale

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