training for soccer

Here is the previous discussion

drsquat.com Forum Index drsquat.com
THE destination for Strength and Conditioning!

FAQFAQ SearchSearch MemberlistMemberlist UsergroupsUsergroups
ProfileProfile You have no new messagesYou have no new messages Log out [ the9thwonder ]Log out [ the9thwonder ]

Old thread on aerobic training

Post new topic Reply to topic drsquat.com Forum Index -> Comments, Questions, and Suggestions
View previous topic :: View next topic
Author Message
Larry Lindahl

Joined: 28 May 2006
Posts: 9

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 2:04 am Post subject: Old thread on aerobic training Reply with quote
It'll take a computer dummy like me a little time to find my way around but it looks as if it will be worth the journey.

Question: There was a thread on the old forum on the topic of aerobic training (as it related to soccer players). It was really good but I didn't have time to get it printed......any chance that it could be posted so I could make a copy of it?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nizar

Joined: 28 May 2006
Posts: 12

PostPosted: Tue May 30, 2006 3:26 pm Post subject: Reply with quote
The King of the Jungle
Guest Should Soccer players do "aerobic" training (running)
Tuesday, May 9, 2006 5:41 PM

Or should they rather stick to interval sprints? Or both?
Sorry for the general question, I just don't have an idea of how they would train outside the weightroom or the field.

Reply To Original Post

Todd Wilson
Guest Should Soccer players do
Tuesday, May 9, 2006 5:49 PM

There is an aerobic conditioning component to soccer, though is is relatively low, despite the perception that all they do is run.
The main conditioning goal of soccer players should be to be able to sprint at top speed for X distance, for Y number of times. X distance would depend on the players position, Y could essentially be a general number, but some stats run on various players at various positions over a season would be interesting. A coach or expeirienced soccer player would be able to make an accurate estimate of the number of repeated effort sprints one would make in a game, then one could take that number and judge how many the player should build up to during training, as they may not be the same number.

But basically, a soccer player needs to be able to perform a high number of repeated all out sprints.

The aerobic conditinoing necessary will be accomplished via interval training and specific training during practice.

Runnning for miles on end would simply be counterproductive.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Brian Wallace
Guest Should Soccer players do
Tuesday, May 9, 2006 5:50 PM

Both. This doesn't necessairly mean go for a 5 mile jog (that's too long and not intense enough), but they do need to do things that increase their ability to create energy aerobically through slow gylcolysis.
Soccer (for midfielders) is over 60% aerobic. It is much more aerobic than most people on this board probably think - and much less aerobic than the general public probably thinks.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Chris Doyle
Guest Should Soccer players do
Tuesday, May 9, 2006 5:56 PM

Yep, midfielders rarely have chance to stop completely. It is not like rugby where they do literally come to a standstill often. Passages of play up to a couple of minutes. Generally they are shorter though. 1 -2 minutes. the central defenders don't sprint that much.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

tcu lifter
Guest Should Soccer players do
Tuesday, May 9, 2006 6:01 PM

While I think Todd knows his stuff, I played soccer for the majority of my life. While sprints are important, the ability to stay moving constantly is key. It is much easier to go from 30-60 mph than 0-60mph. While constant motion is not always necessary, at the level I'm guessing your playing breakaways would give most of the goals. Therefore, get lots of work running for distance. But, I would have to agree with the others that sprints are very important. Shuttles were a staple of our training and I feel very beneficial. 40's are not as important as somepeople say b/c rarely often is a player gonna be able to trap or dribble at 40 speed. Shuttles or relays are much more important for the stop and go speed IMO.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Chris Doyle
Guest Should Soccer players do
Tuesday, May 9, 2006 6:13 PM

To be fair they will get enough aerobic work playing anyway.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Todd Wilson
Guest Should Soccer players do
Tuesday, May 9, 2006 6:18 PM

It is much easier to go from 30-60 mph than 0-60mph.
### This is true, and this is what makes up the aerobic component, but if the player can continually run sprints for X distance, he will be able to keep moving at a far less speed in between those sprints or hard runs. That coupled with specific training from practice sessions will more than take care of the relatively slight amount of aerobic conditioning for the soccer player. If you take VO2 max's of a soccer team prior to the season they will be higher than at the end of the season. Why? Most soccer players coaches train with far too much aerobic work. During the season games and practices take care of said aerobic conditioning, but at the end of the season the aerobic system will have actually been detrained as a result of the specific (i.e., more anaerobic) work of playing games and practicing.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

tcu lifter
Guest Should Soccer players do
Tuesday, May 9, 2006 7:00 PM

Todd - I'm not sure what you mean by too much. The same could be said of too much weight lifting in Football. Test the maxes at the end of the season and they are way lower than in season. I'm not getting in a pissing match, just confused as to your point. I agree with you, but I don't know if it is grounds for saying there is "too much" cardio.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

tcu lifter
Guest Should Soccer players do
Tuesday, May 9, 2006 7:01 PM

I meant to say lower than preseason- in regards to football.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

quazi modo
Guest Should Soccer players do
Tuesday, May 9, 2006 7:14 PM

I played soccer. You need an endurance component. without it you cant be very useful. Todd is correct, and so is Brian. Midfield and wing run up and down up and down, not always that fast, but it interferes with recovery from the sprints. We always found 8 laps of the soccerfield, all of us competing and trying to come first, really really helped. Other than that big sprints, little sprints, fat sprints etc etc all good

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Todd Wilson
Guest Should Soccer players do
Tuesday, May 9, 2006 8:57 PM

### The comparison of strength in football isn't very valid. However, it is possible that an athlete has more strength than is necessary.....see Zatsiorsky's explanation of optimal strength. However, my point is, if the VO2 max has decreased during the season, then obviously it was unnecessary to train it to the pre-season level as that high a VO2 max was uneccessary to compete and practice for a season. Rarely is a soccer team going to be beaten because of lack of aerobic fitness. They will virtually always be beaten by a team that is faster at both the beginning and the end of the game. Aerobic fitness is not going to allow a sprint late in the second half comparable to what it was in the first half unless one's ability to repeat maximal efforts is at a level that allows for it. Aerobic fitness DOES NOT equate endurance. GO to a 10K, when someone crosses the finish line, they can have a more or less normal conversation with you. Now go to a track meet and try and talk to a sprinter, 200, or 400 meter runner after they cross the finish line.....at that moment they even know their name because all they can think about is air. Aerobic fitness allows one to low intensity efforts for a long duration, Anaerobic endurance allows you to run faster longer and a greater number of times. Soccer is dominated by the anaerobic system. Take a cross country runner and put them on the soccer field, they'll lose lunch, or they'll be too slow to be in any of the action. No point in being able to go forever if your going slow. Soccer, for mos tof the field positions is dominated by sprints followed by recovery in which granted the athlete may be jogging to be in position for the next play, but if they are doing that in practice it will require a low level of energy, and especially if they built up their anaerobic endurance to the point where a sprint takes less effort. For too long in exercise physiology is has been assumed that aerobic fitness was the base of the pyramid of conditioning. This is completely incorrect, it ianaerobic fitness, and the wider it's base the higher the peak can be for aerobic fitness, but at the same time the lower that peak would have to be.

Does that make any sense?

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

tcu lifter
Guest Should Soccer players do
Tuesday, May 9, 2006 10:29 PM

Rarely is a soccer team going to be beaten because of lack of aerobic fitness. They will virtually always be beaten by a team that is faster at both the beginning and the end of the game. Aerobic fitness is not going to allow a sprint late in the second half comparable to what it was in the first half unless one's ability to repeat maximal efforts is at a level that allows for it.
### Not true. A majority of the goals come from breakaways or lapses of concentration from the denfense. And most breakaways are from a lapse of teamwork and fluid movement by the defense as a whole- not a one on one for a ball. Many games were played in HS where a team won purely by wearing down the other. With more and more teams playing zone the need for a risky one on one can be reduced and practically eliminated.

Aerobic fitness DOES NOT equate endurance.

### ????!!!!!!!

Take a cross country runner and put them on the soccer field, they'll lose lunch, or they'll be too slow to be in any of the action. No point in being able to go forever if your going slow. Soccer, for mos tof the field positions is dominated by sprints followed by recovery in which granted the athlete may be jogging to be in position for the next play, but if they are doing that in practice it will require a low level of energy, and especially if they built up their anaerobic endurance to the point where a sprint takes less effort.

### Most coaches require their players to run CC! I did both and never lost my lunch. ...Obviously there are exceptions to the rule. Also, in my original post, I did stress the need for sprints and shuttles.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Todd Wilson
Guest Should Soccer players do
Tuesday, May 9, 2006 11:57 PM

Not true. A majority of the goals come from breakaways or lapses of concentration from the denfense. And most breakaways are from a lapse of teamwork and fluid movement by the defense as a whole- not a one on one for a ball. Many games were played in HS where a team won purely by wearing down the other. With more and more teams playing zone the need for a risky one on one can be reduced and practically eliminated.
*** What's not true? If most goals come from breakaways then that that lends credit to my argument that anaerobic conditioning is the most important aspect as it is essentially a hard run or sprint down field. If the zone eliminates this and forces a team to execute better in half the field and wear the other team down on defense, then again it lends itself to my argument, because away from the ball their will be less movment and more players staying within a relatively confined zone based on where the ball is, this will require even less aerobic capacity, and the team that can attack, or repel attacks repeatedly (i.e., repeated efforts) will be the one that does not wear down.

Aerobic fitness DOES NOT equate endurance.

### ????!!!!!!!

*** Because someone is aerobically fit does not mean that they are going to possess adequate endurance. Aerobic and anaerobic difference are two different strength qualities. Anaerobic endurance has greater carry over to aerobic endurance than vice versa. E.g., a 400 meter runner won't have too hard a time performing respectably in a 10K, a 10ker wouldn't be worth spit in a 400 meter race, he would be lapped by the guy doing the victory lap.

### Most coaches require their players to run CC!

*** So whatever a coach does is right? Please don't allow that to be your argument, some coaches recommend running 20 miles a week to lose fat too, but I had rather use a training program that will get desireable results.

I did both and never lost my lunch

*** Ah, but you had an anaerobic base from playing soccer.

. ...Obviously there are exceptions to the rule. Also, in my original post, I did stress the need for sprints and shuttles.

*** Understandable, but if those are all done in the proper way aerobic work will have no benefit because again, all needed aerobic work will be achieved via specific practice as well as the carry over from the anaerobic work.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

tcu lifter
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 12:03 AM

Todd- we could do this back and forth all night. You are obviously not getting what I'm saying and I'm obviously not getting what you're saying. At the expense of both of our times- I'm out of this one. "The dude abides."

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Todd Wilson
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 12:42 AM

You are obviously not getting what I'm saying and I'm obviously not getting what you're saying.
### I understand perfectly well what you are saying, but am explaining why it is incorrect. It does not appear you understand what I have explained however. It does not appear you understand the differentiation between energy systems and how each are actually utilized on the field.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

tcu lifter
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 1:12 AM

Let it rest dude. Get off the soapbox.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Todd Wilson
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 1:24 AM

What are you talking about,what soap box? You're misunderstanding something and I'm trying to help you out. There is a degree to which the aerobic system is used in soccer, but not enough to warrant training it, as I have explained. Just as while there is an anaerobic component to target shooting, one doesn't really need to train the anaerobic energy system in order to target not good. Either you've missed that point, don't want to accept being wrong, or you disagree but can't or won't explain your reasoning for such a belief. Discussion boards are for discussions......maybe I'm wrong, but whining about whatever soap box you're talking about benefits no one. Please help me to stifle my ignorance and misunderstanding if I am incorrect.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Chris Doyle
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:27 AM

one thing esp in HS games may well not be weekly. Most people in Europe who are sporty will have played kickabout football on small pitches a lot growing up. I disagree to an extent the longer the interval you will start to use more of aerobic energypathway as well as anerobic one.
Brooks and Fahey (1985) found continuous training as the optimal way to improve oxygen delivery, while interval training increases oxygen utilization and lactate threshold. With interval training, there is the ability to perform large amounts of high intensity work in shorter time. This type of training can also be manipulated to alter which metabolic pathway is emphasized, longer intervals involve more aerobic pathways, shorter intervals involve more anaerobic pathways.

http://www.rossboxing.com/thegym/thegym21.htm

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Nelson Nash
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:42 AM

In 5K or 10K race,the runners actually sprint last 200 or 100 m.They are good both aerobically and anaerobically.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Chris Doyle
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:50 AM

a 5k definitely isn't very long about 3 miles plus they will have good anerobic conditioning from playing football ahh soccer as u guys call it. How is soccer viewed in US ? As sg of a sissy sport?? I hear this soccer mum expression , does that mean its meant to be a girly sport which woman encourage?

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Carlo Buzzichelli
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 5:16 AM

Todd,
Soccer players are not alpine skiers; their VO2Max remains stable throughout the season, first because they don't build it up during preparation, second because they maintain it during the season. This at elite level. In Europe lower level players may actually see an increase in VO2Max at the end of the season.

In North America, where the season in much shorter, the preparation longer and the games not as frequent, you may see a reduction of VO2Max if the preparation was based mostly on aerobic conditioning and was long enough to bring it up in the first place, but here I am speculating.

Alactic capacity (what Bompa calls Power Endurance and Ian King calls not good/alactic speed endurance)is also based on the recovery ability given by the aerobic system. In fact, when I have a high level of anaerobic power (both alactic and lactic) training under my belt and play with the team I coach, my fitness level is only good enough for up to 5 minutes with some high intensity sprints (where I smoke them all..). There is no overlap between anaerobic power and the aerobic system. Anaerobic capacity, however, is another matter (as you say); but working anaerobic capacities means calling the aerobic system into play.

Now, if it's true that long steady runs should have less space than in the past, is also true that with long seasons with frequent matches like we have in soccer, in-season training specificity should NOT be too high.

So, if we agree on that and we have to deal with a sport where diverse forms of specific training are performed 6 days a week, as S&C coaches we probably need to concentrate on balancing energy systems loads and using more general training means, which include working the aerobic system as long as it doesn't interfere but, on the contrary, sustain the specific work.

Best,

C.B.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

The King of the Jungle
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 5:30 AM

Todd, Carlo, etc...thanks alot for the help...
Do you know of any link where I can take a look at how a general soccer conditioning program is structured (some sort of template for beginners maybe)

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Todd Wilson
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:20 AM

Soccer players are not alpine skiers; their VO2Max remains stable throughout the season, first because they don't build it up during preparation,
### It would be preferable that they not build it up (as I have indicated), but (at least here in the States) too many players and coaches spend a significant portion of the off-season preparation increasing their VO2 for the pending season. If you takes measurements, they are always higher just prior to and at the beginnning of a season that at the end.

second because they maintain it during the season. This at elite level. In Europe lower level players may actually see an increase in VO2Max at the end of the season.

### That's exactly what one sees, therefore, to what benefit would the "mostly" aerobic conditioning be?

### And this is satisfactorably trained via specific work, no additional aerobic work is needed.

There is no overlap between anaerobic power and the aerobic system. Anaerobic capacity, however, is another matter (as you say); but working anaerobic capacities means calling the aerobic system into play.

### This is exactly what I have been saying.

### Well, you can't do anything about the length or frequency of the games, or the season. All you can do is prepare to perform at the highest level possible for the duration. However, the in-season training specificity that I am talking about is mere practice of skills and team strategy, it will provide plenty ofstimulation for the aerobic system to be able to meet the demands of the athlete.

### General work will be drastically decreased and/or eliminated during the season in most instances. Some general strength maintenance and injury prevention work may be performed, but rarely would one need to further tax the system with aerobic work for a soccer player in-season. The aerobic demands simply are not high enough to warrant it.

which include working the aerobic system as long as it doesn't interfere but, on the contrary, sustain the specific work.

### It would be rare that working the aerobic system outside of the specific work obtained from games/practices would not interfere. The time a soccer player spends "not sprinting" makes up most of the time they are on the field, but at those times, the energy demands, intensity of movement etc. are incredibly low compared to the rest of the time. If a proper anaerobic is in place and the athlete get's enough reps in practice, training the aerobic system (with anything over say 800m runs) is simply taxing their recovery systems unnecessarily and does not do anything to improve their ability to offset fatigue throughout the course of the match.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

The King of the Jungle
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:23 AM

Oh my god, I'm lost (

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Todd Wilson
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 11:40 AM

Do you know of any link where I can take a look at how a general soccer conditioning program is structured (some sort of template for beginners maybe)
### If you're a beginning soccer player, simply work towards increasing GPP and practice soccer skills. No point in playing if you can't handle a ball, defend someone, etc. That will take care of 90%+ of conditioning until you reach a relatively high level of play

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Todd Wilson
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 12:02 PM

How is soccer viewed in US ?
### It's growing, more and more HS and colleges are adding soccer. One thing the soccer officials in this country did (not sure if it was done with FIFA or not) was they didn't start going to high schools, colleges, etc. trying to get them to implement soccer. They started with kids in weekend leagues. Once those kids became HS and college age soccer has become more competitive and more in demand so it is growing. But understand in this country you have in order: Football, Basketball, Baseball, and in the northern states Hockey, other sports are all competing against each other, not the big 3 or 4. It has had the reputation to the extent of being the sport that people play who can't play the big 3, but that's simply reality. As big is Soccer is in Europe, understand, College football is that much bigger here in the States. I know of businesses that not good down on Saturday's during football season, but are open the rest of the year.

The other thing soccer must contend with, is let's say a kid is in his first year of highschool, and he's a really good athlete. Bet your last nickel, the football coach WILL be trying to get him to play football! This is a practice I loathe, but it's reality. It will become much more mainstream and popular in the next 20 years or so, but right now, it's a sport that kids will play, but parents and coaches will often guide them into other sports as they get older.....and because of cultural influences (i.e., soccer players don't get gatorade and sprite commercials here in the U.S.) the athletes themselves will gravitate to another sport.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Chris Doyle
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 12:31 PM

I hear (well from watching Bend it Like Beckham) that women's soccer is much bigger in the USA than it is here.Even if u are small and light u can still play soccer. Hence its mass appeal in europe and south america and now south east asia. Will rugby ever take off it is potentially a much more viewer friendly version of American Football?

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Carlo Buzzichelli
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:18 PM

It would be preferable that they not build it up.
C - In fact, it's what normally happens in Europe, at least at the highest level. What we look at, eventually, is the AT.

to what benefit would the "mostly" aerobic conditioning be?

C - Well, if your off-season is pretty long SOME aerobic training during preparation would be of benefit, as you don't want to start right off with alactic capacity work or high intensity specific work when most soccer players are not even balanced strength wise.

And this is satisfactorably trained via specific work, no additional aerobic work is needed.

C - We pretty much agree on this BUT in-season training is a different thing from preparation. My model goes from general to specific to general for the "dry land means" (no ball), whereas specific ball work increase in volume and intensity up to the optimal level.

Well, you can't do anything about the length or frequency of the games, or the season.

C - That was to keep in mind the difference between Europe and North America. As the frequency of the games and the length of the season is very different, so is the periodization model.

All you can do is prepare to perform at the highest level possible for the duration.

C - Actually, at least in Europe, for several reasons we don't have the possibility to "prepare to perform at the highest level possible", but we do the best we can to have the team perform at his best given a thousand limitations. I work in several sports (T&F, volleyball, swimming, soccer), and soccer is the sport where is very rare to implement the "best possible approach" to training. I think some collegues in North America speak about soccer without really knowing what the sport is like at the highest level.

mere practice of skills and team strategy, it will provide plenty ofstimulation for the aerobic system

C - Sometime so, sometime not.

General work will be drastically decreased and/or eliminated during the season in most instances

C - That is exactly what should NOT be done. training the aerobic system (with anything over say 800m runs) is simply taxing their recovery systems unnecessarily and does not do anything to improve their ability to offset fatigue throughout the course of the match

C - I am referring to O2 compensation work and Tempo training; they do not interfere with specific work. Anyhow, except for slow steady runs for O2 compensation and Fartlek for when the outside temperature is around 0 B0C or we are at the beginning of preparation, I never have my players perform anything longer than 200m. Furthermore, if in-season all you do is "specific", you always tax the same systems and the team prepardness and readiness for the games become poor.

Todd, what is you real life experience with soccer preparation?

Best,

C.B.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Carlo Buzzichelli
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:22 PM

It would be preferable that they not build it up. C - In fact, it's what normally happens in Europe, at least at the highest level. What we look at, eventually, is the AT.
to what benefit would the "mostly" aerobic conditioning be?

And this is satisfactorably trained via specific work, no additional aerobic work is needed.

Well, you can't do anything about the length or frequency of the games, or the season.

C - That was to keep in mind the difference between Europe and North America. As the frequency of the games and the length of the season is very different, so is the periodization model.

All you can do is prepare to perform at the highest level possible for the duration.

mere practice of skills and team strategy, it will provide plenty ofstimulation for the aerobic system

C - Sometime so, sometime not.

General work will be drastically decreased and/or eliminated during the season in most instances

C - That is exactly what should NOT be done.

training the aerobic system (with anything over say 800m runs) is simply taxing their recovery systems unnecessarily and does not do anything to improve their ability to offset fatigue throughout the course of the match If a proper anaerobic is in place and the athlete get's enough reps in practice, training the aerobic system (with anything over say 800m runs) is simply taxing their recovery systems unnecessarily and does not do anything to improve their ability to offset fatigue throughout the course of the match

Todd, what is you real life experience with soccer preparation?

Best,

C.B.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Todd Wilson
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 4:54 PM

C - Well, if your off-season is pretty long SOME aerobic training during preparation would be of benefit,
### Rarely, for one thing, it can be trained very quickly just prior to the beginning of preseason practice. Secondly, most soccer players are playing all the time (here in the states at least). If anything, an occasional long run may be beneficial. But weekly aerobic work will only hamper efforts for other training effects.

as you don't want to start right off with alactic capacity work or high intensity specific work when most soccer players are not even balanced strength wise.

And this is satisfactorably trained via specific work, no additional aerobic work is needed.

### This is my point, in the preparatory period little time should be given aerobic work given the nature of the sport. It's a waste of the training buck. DO it just before practice starts if the athlete is not performing enough field work to take care of it.

Well, you can't do anything about the length or frequency of the games, or the season.

C - That was to keep in mind the difference between Europe and North America. As the frequency of the games and the length of the season is very different, so is the periodization model.

All you can do is prepare to perform at the highest level possible for the duration.

### I'm not talking about the "best possible approach." Obviously from the strength coaching perspective, that is most desireable. But how many athletes have you worked with in which that was possible? I've never had one! Therefore you have to do it in a way that "prepares them to perform at the highest level possible" (obviously) given the circumstances. For one athlete you may only have 6 weeks. Not much time, but there are things you can do that, for in those 6 weeks get's that athlete ready as well as possible given the limitation of four weeks of preparation, their schedule, etc., etc.

mere practice of skills and team strategy, it will provide plenty of stimulation for the aerobic system

C - Sometime so, sometime not.

### Most times.

General work will be drastically decreased and/or eliminated during the season in most instances

C - That is exactly what should NOT be done.

### It can't be helped Carlo. Granted in the perfect world you would, but when you factor in travel, practices (I.e., to most coaches longer is better), life, etc. If you start adding a bunch of general work, the athlete will overtrain and/or become injured. All you can do is perform a minimal amount of general work in order to prevent muscle loss and prevent significant muscle imbalances.

### I wouldn't disagree with that one bit.

Furthermore, if in-season all you do is "specific", you always tax the same systems and the team prepardness and readiness for the games become poor.

### Then the specific work wasn't very specific or I don't understand you.

Todd, what is you real life experience with soccer preparation?

### I've worked collegiate players during the offseason.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Carlo Buzzichelli
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 5:17 PM

T - But how many athletes have you worked with in which that was possible?
C - In individual sports with not good in-season you can get pretty close to the best possible approach. In soccer you stay pretty much far from it all the time.

T - Then the specific work wasn't very specific or I don't understand you

C - This is very much a theoretical (and methodological)difference between us. Generally, specificity has to be lowered as you apporach the peak (but was preceeded by very higly specific work, as in the taper); specificity has not to be overused in practice when you play/race very frequently. When you have limited time to train you go very specific in practice but it's not the point here.

To make my point more understandable, it's the same reason for not doing plyos with volleyball and basketball players in season; it's the same reason Charles Poliquin suggest mid-rep sets with "normal" exercises for hockey players in season, when many people go nuts with intensity or speed of execution; the same reason Tommy Kono was doing bodybuilding training during his taper to weightlifting competitions. You don't want to tax the same systems over and over again, especially before a game/race/meet.

As you will do some specific work anyway, you don't want to do ONLY that all the time.

What was your weekly schedule like with the collegiate team?

Best,

C.B.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Artis Shepherd
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:12 PM

Todd,
I don't pretend to know the science, terminology, etc. behind exercise and conditioning, as you do. However, I did play soccer professionally (meaning I got paid for it) in Europe and SA several years back.

So let me school you a bit, since your repeated comments betray you as someone who has absolutely ZERO knowledge of the conditioning required and used by soccer players.

25-50% of fitness training during the primary soccer season is aerobic in nature (longer, slower runs). During the off-season, 50-75% of fitness training is aerobic in nature. This is a hell of alot more than "occasional". This is the standard quota of aerobic fitness training used by soccer coaches at a high level everywhere, not just in EU, not just in SA, not just in the US...everywhere.

A soccer player, especially one who plays ahead of the back line (midfield and strikers), is just about useless without good aerobic conditioning.

If you tried to apply some of your soccer conditioning "expertise" to a pro team or any team at a high level, you would be laughed at, and with good reason.

Also, your comment about "work[ing] collegiate players during the offseason" is a little suspicious. Any serious collegiate program has an off-season training (and even playing) program. Any soccer player worth two shits would be ill-advised to take "training" sessions with someone who has little or no experience actually playing the game.

I don't mean to piss all over you, but your comments reek of someone who has absolutely no knowledge of the game, yet you still press your point. For people who actually do know the game, and know it well, it gets annoying.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Todd Wilson
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 7:45 PM

T - Then the specific work wasn't very specific or I don't understand you
C - This is very much a theoretical (and methodological)difference between us. Generally, specificity has to be lowered as you apporach the peak (but was preceeded by very higly specific work, as in the taper); specificity has not to be overused in practice when you play/race very frequently. When you have limited time to train you go very specific in practice but it's not the point here.

### I don't know that we aren't applying different definitions to specificity. Understand, in this context, when I'm talking about specificity of conditioning, I'm not talking about specificity of weight room or conditioning workouts, I'm talking about the amount of conditioning they are getting from practice, drills, playing in various game like situations, scrimmaging, etc. I'm not talking about conditioning workouts that are supposdly specific to the energy system needs of the athlete. The closer it gets to the season you get the less you would do something like that, the degree to which you would do it in the off season would depend on the qualification of the athletes.

To make my point more understandable, it's the same reason for not doing plyos with volleyball and basketball players in season;

### This is my exact reasoning for the lack of need for aerobic conditioning training. They get all they need.

it's the same reason Charles Poliquin suggest mid-rep sets with "normal" exercises for hockey players in season, when many people go nuts with intensity or speed of execution; the same reason Tommy Kono was doing bodybuilding training during his taper to weightlifting competitions. You don't want to tax the same systems over and over again, especially before a game/race/meet.

### I agree fully, hence why the need for aerobic work?

As you will do some specific work anyway, you don't want to do ONLY that all the time.

What was your weekly schedule like with the collegiate team?

### Well, I had 7-8 members of the women's team one off season for about 10-12 weeks. Because of schedules we lifted 3 mornings a week, they played 2 sometimes 3 afternoons a week, and we conditioned twice on days they didn't play. We worked on improving not good distance speed and some cutting stuff later in the mesocycle, on one day. On the other it wwas energy system work in which we essentially improved their anaerobic work capacity. Looking back I would have done more of this sooner, and less later with more speed work later in the mesocycle.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Fred Hatfield II
Administrator and
Forum Moderator
View Profile
Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 8:15 PM

"So let me school you a bit, since your repeated comments betray you as someone who has absolutely ZERO knowledge of the conditioning required and used by soccer players. "
THis is a great discussion! But Artis, be nice! I'm not disagreeing, and I may enter the discussion soon. I'm not singling you out either.... Let's all stay calm, but firm.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Todd Wilson
Guest Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 8:18 PM

So let me school you a bit, since your repeated comments betray you as someone who has absolutely ZERO knowledge of the conditioning required and used by soccer players.
25-50% of fitness training during the primary soccer season is aerobic in nature (longer, slower runs).

### I'm not concerned about the time spent by someone else on their fitness training for soccer, I'm explaining a better way to do it without having to spend that much time on aerobic conditioning because, for the reasons I'given above it's unwarranted.

During the off-season, 50-75% of fitness training is aerobic in nature.

### Who says? 75% of all weight room training by collegiate football teams consist of the bench press, half squat, and a reverse curl done with maximum english that they claim is a power clean. Because that's what most schools do does that make it a great way to train? I hope not.

This is a hell of alot more than "occasional". This is the standard quota of aerobic fitness training used by soccer coaches at a high level everywhere, not just in EU, not just in SA, not just in the US...everywhere.

### You misunderstand me. I could care less about any standard quota of what coaches (particularly sport coaches who typically have little knowledge of strength and conditioning) do in their training. If their is one who seems to always have the best conditioned team in a league, you might check out some of the stuff he does, but sorry, I'm not concerned about what most do. If you want to be like most players/teams, you do what they do, if you want to excel to a higher level you do something different. That has been a standard principle of success in any endeavor from sports to business since the word go.

A soccer player, especially one who plays ahead of the back line (midfield and strikers), is just about useless without good aerobic conditioning.

### And you base that on what? How many players have you seen that have been properly conditioned for soccer with minimal aerobic work? On what do you make this comparison?

If you tried to apply some of your soccer conditioning "expertise" to a pro team or any team at a high level, you would be laughed at, and with good reason.

### So? You somehow think that I actually would care that most people in the soccer world believe a bunch of aerobic conditioning is essential. I don't! I wouldn't do anything like other coaches I assure you. Are you somehow suggesting that all the soccer coaches you've been around prepare their athletes optimally? Please. There was a time when football players were made to run miles, baseball players still run "foul poles," the NFL measures strength in their players via a 225 pound for reps test. I'm sorry to be the non-comformist, but I would rather be laughed at and train a player to achieve as much as possible with as little as he has than to do train them like everyone else and get their results. Bring on the laughter, I'll point to results.

### Well, FYI, in the U.S., the NCAA deems that player on campus during the summer cannot be forced to workout. But therefore they're coach can provide times for the to meet with tthe S&C coach, but no soccer program no matter how "serious" can have to rigid a program. However that's beside the point. If you must know...I was coaching another sport at the university I was at and had gotten to know the soccer coach fairly well, we even worked out a few times.....however, towards the end of one season his best player was hobbling with a bad knee and the trainers couldn't do anything with it. Within 2 weeks I had her playing pain free for the most part. He requested that I work with a handful of his players that were around for the summer. I obliged as I had the time. They all had great results with me so much so that he attempted to get the athletic department to allow him to subcontract me to condition the team, but with me already working there, even if I had the time the athletic department wasn't about to do that. I did talk with him a lot about conditoning however (he was a former professional player mind you) and he implemented many of my recommendations and raved about how much better it worked. Much to the dislike of his athletes.

### Well, I press my point because I have not had someone give me a good reason why it is necessary to do a lot of aerobic work when all of the aerobic work during a game is low intensity. And not to piss you off, but while I respect that you were a professional in your discipline.....with apologies, that does mean you know how to best condition for a sport based on energy system dominance, training, and implementation. Furthermore, what this coach or that coach actually does is irrelavant as to whether or not my recommendations are or are not valid. Maybe I'm incorrect, but implying that I am incorrect because you and/or coach X simply think so is about logical as a Norwegian bullfight.

Furthermore, even if soccer is as aerobically dominated as you seem to suggest, it still only means that in a trained soccer player a maximum of 5-8 weeks of aerobic conditioning would be needed per year as the aerobic system can be very quickly trained compared to the anaerobic system. So again, soccer players need far less aerobic work than most coaches and or trainers would suggest.

The problem is everyone knows fatigue makes cowards of us all. No truer statement has ever been stated in all the world of sport. However, to many athletes, coaches, fans, strength coaches, et.al. assume that when a player (particularly a soccer player who is doing a lot of running) becomes tired that they have poor aerobic conditioning. This is nonsense, if you watch a game, players get winded or tired from the repeated sprints and movements during a game. No amount of aerobic work will improve that. They have to get to where they can repeat those high intensity burst over and over again. Now, does the aerobic system play a part in recovery from those high intensity burst of effort? Of course, but again the aerobic level of conditioning needed to aid in that recovery is relatively low and can be achieved via playing the sport.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Jim Nugent
Gold Member
View Profile
Should Soccer players do
Wednesday, May 10, 2006 10:37 PM

A long time ago, I played soccer at a nationally ranked university. Defensive midfielder. Our team had a couple of national team players and future pro's.
For me personally, a combination of wind sprints (30 to 50 yards) and 220's (run 220, cross the field, run 220, at about 90% full speed) worked best. That kept me strong the full game, and also built speed/quickness. Every now and then we ran a mile in training. But I felt I never used that speed in play. Mostly not good sprints.

However, we only played once a week, for a few months -- 10 or so matches a season. If we had played 40 matches, we probably would have needed different training.

I have read that the average pro player runs around 5 to 6 miles during the course of a match.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Todd Wilson
Guest Should Soccer players do
Thursday, May 11, 2006 6:31 PM

Just another note, as I checked it last night (because I wasn't sure if I remembered correctly yesterday or not).....In Periodization: Theory and Methodology of Training, Bompa Cites Del Monte (1983) as having soccer only 0-10% aerobic. The rest of the energy production coming from the ATP and LA systems.
FOr those who recommend more aerobic work than I have been espousing, how do you determine the amount of aerobic work, and justify spending time on something that occurs maybe 10% of the time. Or better stated is responsible for up to 10% of energy expended. Does something that accounts for only 10% of energy production warrant significant training? WHy can't it be gained via playing the sport? Intresting note, it is similar to tennis in that the duration of the event is partially responsible for it having a portion of the energy expenditure or production via the aerobic system.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Carlo Buzzichelli
Guest Should Soccer players do
Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:40 PM

I don't know where Dal Monte got those figures, but they are very much off. I am going to buy the text from which they have been taken and check, because I even think it's a typo.
A soccer player runs under the AT for 7.4 Km each match, above AT for another 0.7 Km and sprints, with little rest in between, for a total of 400m; no, it's not like the tennis situation.. at all. That's why elite soccer players have a VO2max of 60-65 ml/Kg/min.

Can a sport where the average heart rate for 90' of duration is 160 bpm, be only 10% aerobic?

Jens Bangsbo, ex professional player, one of the most respected sport phisiologist specialized in soccer and national coach, writes: >.

___________________________________________________________

The following introduction to a study from last year summarize some studies on applied soccer phisiology:

The Relationship Between Onset of Blood Lactate Accumulation, Critical Velocity, and Maximal Lactate Steady State in Soccer Players Benedito SC)rgio Denadai, Euripedes Barsanulfo GonC'alves Gomide, and Camila Coelho Greco

Human Performance Laboratory, IB, UNESP, Av. 24 A, 1515, Bela Vista, Rio Claro, SP, Brazil, CEP-13506-900

Introduction

In many sports such as ball games, the exercise is intermittent and performance is related to the athlete's ability to repeatedly perform intense exercise. It has been demonstrated that the quality of soccer is associated with the amount of high-intensity running performed throughout a game (3). The capacity to perform high-intensity intermittent exercise may be influenced by some factors such as muscle glycogen, creatine phosphate, lactate, and pH. It has been documented that muscle glycogen, creatine phosphate resynthesis, and lactate concentration (muscle and blood) are positively influenced by aerobic training status (7, 37). Recent studies have confirmed the importance of aerobic fitness in the performance of soccer players (1, 11). Aziz et al. (1) found an inverse and moderate correlation between maximal oxygen uptake (O2max) and repeated sprint performance (8 C 40 m). In a longitudinal study, Helgerud et al. (13) showed that high-intensity aerobic training increased O2max and the lactate threshold. Moreover, there was an increase in the distance covered (20%), number of sprints (100%), and number of involvements with the ball (24%) during the match, while no changes were observed in maximal vertical jumping height, strength, or speed.

1. Aziz, A.R., M. Chia, and K.C. Teh. The relationship between maximal oxygen uptake and repeated sprint performance indices in field hockey and soccer players. J. Sports Med. Phys. Fitness. 40:195b200. 2000.

3. Bangsbo, J., L. Norregaard, and F. Thorso. Activity profile of competition soccer. Can. J. Sport Sci. 16:110b116. 1991.

7. Constable, S.H., R.J. Favier, J.A. Mclane, R.D. Fell, M. Chen, and J.O. Holloszy. Energy metabolism in contracting rat skeletal muscle: Adaptation to exercise training. Am. J. Physiol. 253:C316bC322. 1987.

11. Gaesser, G.A., and L.A. Wilson. Effects of continuous and interval training on the parameters of the power-endurance time relationship for high-intensity exercise. Int. J. Sports Med. 9:417b421. 1988.

37. Yoshida, T. The rate of phosphocreatine hydrolysis and resynthesis in exercising muscle in humans using 31P-MRS. J. Physiol. Anthropol. 21:247b255. 2002 _______________________________________________________

Best,

C.B.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Carlo Buzzichelli
Guest Should Soccer players do
Thursday, May 11, 2006 8:46 PM

I don't know where Dal Monte got those figures, but they are very much off. I am going to buy the text from which they have been taken and check, because I even think it's a typo. A soccer player runs under the AT for 7.4 Km each match, above AT for another 0.7 Km and sprints, with little rest in between, for a total of 400m; no, it's not like the tennis situation.. at all. That's why elite soccer players have a VO2max of 60-65 ml/Kg/min.
Can a sport where the average heart rate for 90' of duration is 160 bpm, be only 10% aerobic?

Jens Bangsbo, ex professional player, one of the most respected sport phisiologist specialized in soccer and national coach, writes: "The aerobic energy system provides by far the greatest amount of energy used during a match. Heart rate and body temperature measurements indicate that a top-class player exercises at an average intensity of approximately 70% of maximum oxygen uptake. Such a high exercise intensity maintained for 90 minutes places high demands on the oxygen transport system and the endurance capacity of the muscles".

___________________________________________________________

The following introduction to a study from last year summarize some studies on applied soccer phisiology:

Human Performance Laboratory, IB, UNESP, Av. 24 A, 1515, Bela Vista, Rio Claro, SP, Brazil, CEP-13506-900

Introduction

3. Bangsbo, J., L. Norregaard, and F. Thorso. Activity profile of competition soccer. Can. J. Sport Sci. 16:110b116. 1991.

Best,

C.B.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Todd Wilson
Guest Should Soccer players do
Thursday, May 11, 2006 9:43 PM

I don't know where Dal Monte got those figures, but they are very much off. I am going to buy the text from which they have been taken and check, because I even think it's a typo.
### It's pretty accurate based on observing players at games. That is about what soccer is. I don't have any available, but I have seen other such charts (might have some but can't reference any off the top of my head) and the highest I have ever seen it I believe is 20% aerobic. First off, the players are trained, they have respectable aerobic and anaerobic capacities. A lot of the "running" that people see as strenuous isn't necessarily to the players who do it for about 2 hours everyday in practice. There is a lot of resting when players are away from the ball, even if they are still in motion. That lends credit to his numbers being accurate.

A soccer player runs under the AT for 7.4 Km each match, above AT for another 0.7 Km and sprints, with little rest in between,

### I don't know that that rest in between can be discounted, I believe that is where some of the misunderstanding takes place.

for a total of 400m; no, it's not like the tennis situation.. at all.

### It's very similar, not in the way that they expend energy during play, but in the total demands of energy. Tennis players are making not good duration intense movements, then resting constantly, but the matches last forever. Soccer is doing the same, but with less rest, and while the match is long, it is not quite as long as a tennis match in most instances.

Can a sport where the average heart rate for 90' of duration is 160 bpm, be only 10% aerobic?

### I assume that's 90 minutes? The duration of a game? There heart rate isn't that high for that long. It will fluctuate plenty during the game, the average won't be that high though. But, regardless, if the activity is intermittent enough (like is in in soccer) it can easily be 10% aerobic, unless the athlete is in poor condition, i.e., out of shape.

Jens Bangsbo, ex professional player, one of the most respected sport phisiologist specialized in soccer and national coach, writes: >.

### I don't disagree with that, but my point is, is extra specific aerobic work necessary. SOme of the information presented (and note, I don't have access to the full text, but....) however, while somewhat accurate can be enhanced with better anaerobic conditioning. Furthermore, the aerobic conditioning didn't have a negative effect on power or vertical leap. There's a lot of data that conflicts that, therefore my question would be: how effective was their speed/power/strength training if it was affected by aerobic work. How long/strenuos was the aerobic work if it didn't have a negative effect. And assuming they pulled off a great balance of both...it doesn't compare one way to another. It just found some positive correlations, that I am arguing can be had without said aerobic work. Furthermore, there is so much info on aerobic work for every sport and activity imaginable, unless it is comparing it against another method, it's veracity has to be questioned. Not saying there is anything wrong with the abstract(s), but it provides no information that suggest aerobic work is necessary.

Reply To This Post Reply To Original Post

Carlo Buzzichelli
Guest Should Soccer players do
Friday, May 12, 2006 4:49 AM

Todd,
I think you are discounting the facts to prove your point.

On the other hand I think your position is based on your honest perception of the game, which is not at high level.

In the last 30 years there have been a trend of elite soccer players' VO2Max from 50 to 65 ml/Kg/min.

Several studies show that the average heart rate during a game is 160 bpm +/- 5. I constantly see chart of heart rate of soccer players and those are between 150 and 180 bpm during the whole practice match. Bangsbo studies show an a fluctuation between 150 and 190 during a competitive match.

Now, when I wrote about soccer not being like tennis I knew the whole story, that's why I wrote the distances a soccer player runs, and those make the whole difference, as tennis players don't run 5 Km a game (taking out 3,2 km of jogging at 8 Km/h). Soccer players only stand and walk for 35-40 minutes, the rest of the game (50-55') is spent running. Tennis has a much lower density.

One more thing, it's not that the more fit you are, the less time you are using the aerobic system, actually the opposite is true. The fitter you are, the more time you spend under the Anaerobic Treshold still running fast. That's why S&C coaches in soccer try to elevate the AT.

Paul Tergat (marathon wo

Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield

ProPower

Trainer Locator

Workout Calendar

Weights-Plates

YouTube VCut

Navigation

training for soccer

Proudly Sponsors

Nutritional Products

Privacy/Return Policy

Newsletters

Facebook

New forum topics

Active forum topics