Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield

Mike R
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 6:11 PM

I had a friend ask me how to develop his punching power, if he needs to increase his bench etc. and quite honestly I have a average bench but a stronge punch, so I wasn't sure how to answer his question fairely. I think there is more than a stronge bench in a punch, for example, speed, agility, how you execute the punch, and where you hit someone etc. So if someone out there knows how to develope one's punch, please let me know, and how much does a strong bench corolate into a stronge punch? Thanks Mike

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Chris Doyle
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 6:24 PM

I hear good technique and timing as answers for punching power. You see it from time to time watching boxing matches when I reputedly weak puncher justs lands a great knockout punch.
Other than that Good core Leg and hip strength should help + speed work .I think it is mostly hips and posterior chain.

Try Rossboxing rossboxing.com for a complex programmes on improving punch power if you a boxer . Bench is not all that great IMO- you may build the chest up too much.

http://www.rossboxing.com/punchingwithpower.html

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Todd Wilson
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 6:27 PM

Punching power is much more closely correlated to low back and lat strength than bench press strength.

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Jeffrey Vaughn
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 6:33 PM

Todd, don't forget about obliques and the power of ones hip rotation. Arm and bench strength have little to do with a punch.
Jeffrey Vaughn

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Chris Doyle
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 6:33 PM

Todd , u mean u don't agree that hip +posterior strength is more important!?

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Todd Wilson
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 7:14 PM

Well, the lower back is part of the posterior chain. Seldom is someone strong in the low back and not the hamstrings or vice versa. But, no that's essentially what I was saying that's where you get your power from. Certain types of jabs are primarily shoulder, but most hard licks are low back and lat strength/power.
Doesn't mean that benching is bad for a boxer, just won't make him SUgar Ray Leanoard. I would probably prioritize inclining more so than flat benching however as it more closely resembles the shoulder angle at impact.

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Chris Doyle
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 7:37 PM

Todd, I presuming you are a strength coach - how would go about testing lower back strength - could you use a test like weighted back extensions? also how could I tell if I had relatively weak hamstrings
I know it is a generalisation - but should say someone with a say 400lb deadlift, have much worse lowerback strength than a 500lb or 600lb deadlift.

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Todd Wilson
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 8:18 PM

Todd, I presuming you are a strength coach
### No, I was or almost was for a time, but ended up coaching basketball. Prior to that I had a good bit of expierience working with a bunch of different athletes from a bunch of different sports, a few regular gym rats and even a ROTC unit. But now I primarily just work with my players, though I make exceptions from time to time.

- how would go about testing lower back strength - could you use a test like weighted back extensions?

### To quote a coach I heard in a seminar once. Assume it! Just about the only time I recommend not giving the low back direct work is during a squat cycle in which your bringing up your squat. Now it's a little different for PLers as they have to make sure they don't over train it. Lower back strength is the key to virtually every athletic movement. I think even Doc has said it can't be too strong. Find a world class lifter in olympic lifting or power lifting look at their backs. Have someone take a picture of your back, if you can see your spine, your back is weak! Your erectors should be so big they cover it up. People talk about westsides program and max effort and speed day and argue about what percentages to use and speed this and speed that and box squats and chains and bands, and those are all well and good, but one reason them SOBs are so d**n strong is they hammer their lower backs. One reason Doc squatted over a half ton was because of his laboring on back extensions. Charles Poliquin told an interesting story at a seminar once. When he was coaching Canadas short track speed skaters Canada dominated the event. During this time he said never tested he just assumed they all had weak low backs and weak hamstrings...after a few years he decided to adjust their training some thinking more squats, or explosive work or plyos, or whatever might improve their performance. The next year at worlds his athletes were coming in second and third. So he went back looked at their training logs, and the next year he went back to assuming they had weak low backs and weak hamstrings, they won the gold in the olympics. It's one thing I started to figure out about my third year lifting, but the more I've studied and been in the gym, etc. the low back is one of keys to making the difference between an average gym guy and a beast. If I read an article by a strength coach and he's talking about developing athletes and it doesn't mention something about the low back, I start wondering how much he could know. So to answer your question, assume it's weak....as you get stronger, keep assuming it's weak. Now, you need to take time off of direct back work from time to time, but always assume it needs to be stronger

also how could I tell if I had relatively weak hamstrings

### I said above that seldom will someone have a strong low back and weak hamstrings and vice versa. And it's true, but you can be stronger in one than the other. IMO the Romanian deadlift does a great job of letting you know where. Where ever you feel the most work being done or soreness from the Romanian deadlift is where you are probably weaker. The only thing is you will always be sore in the hamstrings if you get too much of a stretch at the bottom of the movement, so soreness may be deceiving....but you'll know what's working during the movement. Also, you can test hamstring relative strength by using the front squat. Your front squat should be 85% of your back squat.

I know it is a generalisation - but should say someone with a say 400lb deadlift, have much worse lowerback strength than a 500lb or 600lb deadlift.

### Well, obviously they aren't as strong, but there are plenty of other factors that come into play in the deadlift other than just low back strength.

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saad ahmed
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 8:21 PM

Speed+power+weight transfer+accuracy=knockout punch

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Chris Doyle
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 8:30 PM

Thanks a a lot for your help Todd, I have a problem in that I can't do a good back squat. I am novice but my front squat is probably significantly better than my back squat. I could not do the back squat safely.
I heard someone hear say that front squats are mainly a quad movement. My Front Squat - well actaully it is a Zercher which I assume works everything the same as a Front squat is around 150-160kg (predicted) I have done 140kg for a relatively easy double. Will I get an imbalance if I keep training just front squats? I do deadlifts (occasionally) and high pulls and rows(regularly). Don't have access to back extension bench anymore? I could 25kg (55lb) for an easy ten but back alway hurt a bit on the following days I had a v sore back when I tried 40kg for about 5. I could only manage a few reps with 200lb on Zercher good morning - does this suggest poor lower back , hamstring strength. It's strange though I can do steps with 40kg DBs 15 inch bench. This ending up like a consulation lol cheers Chris

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Todd Wilson
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 8:46 PM

I heard someone hear say that front squats are mainly a quad movement.
### Well, they take a lot of the low back out of the movement, but yes they are quad dominant, but do an excellent job of trashing the glutes as well.

My Front Squat - well actaully it is a Zercher which I assume works everything the same as a Front squat

### Eh, they're pretty different.

is around 150-160kg (predicted) I have done 140kg for a relatively easy double. Will I get an imbalance if I keep training just front squats?

### Yes, plus your strength wil plateau. Variety is the spice of training.

I do deadlifts (occasionally) and high pulls and rows(regularly). Don't have access to back extension bench anymore?

### For the low back it's hard to beat variations of the deadlift.

I could 25kg (55lb) for an easy ten but back alway hurt a bit on the following days I had a v sore back when I tried 40kg for about 5. I could only manage a few reps with 200lb on Zercher good morning

### Why do you try to zercher everything, but the bar on your back and do a good morning, or rack it and do a front squat. The zercher squat's an ok lift, but it can't compare to the other two.

- does this suggest poor lower back , hamstring strength.

### Again, your back isn't strong enough. No matter how strong it is, it isn't strong enough. Jeffrey Vaughn might be the strongest guy on this board, his back isn't strong enough. If I'm his strength coach as far as I'm concerned his back is weak and we have to make it strong. When it gets strong, it's still weak and we must make it stronger. Never think that your back is strong enough, it isn't.

It's strange though I can do steps with 40kg DBs 15 inch bench. This ending up like a consulation lol cheers Chris

### Step ups are a great movement and while they work the hamstrings well, done properly they use little low back strength other than some stabilisation as your tors should be erect.

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Chris Doyle
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 9:04 PM

Great stuff here Todd! Looks like it is my back then- get the point though it can never be strong enough.
I use Zercher due to the lack of squat + flexibility issues with the shoulders. I can do a cheat front squat however. I can't rack the bar too - no matter how hard I try. Also the tip of using a wooden strip across the forearms was a Godsend. How do Zerchers work differently to front squats? I understand that they are different movements but will a good zercher usually indicate a good back squat or front squat? Is there anything wrong with Zerchers as such?

I am definitely going to try the Romanian deadlifts .

thanks Chris

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saad ahmed
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 9:05 PM

There have been some very interesting soviet studies on what makes a technically sound punch. The soviets looked at 120 boxers ranging from amateurs to experienced professionals. This study found that among the highest level boxers, the highest percent of their power (38.46%) came from the push-off of their back leg, whereas the arm extension and trunk rotation accounted for 24.12% and 37.42% respectively. Even more interesting was that the high level boxers were more ‘well rounded' with their power development compared to the less experienced boxers (arm extension 37.99%, trunk rotation 45.50% and leg extension 16.51%). This shows that with an increase in boxing skill and experience, boxers improve coordination between arm, leg and trunk movements.

You need:

Strong lats (pull-ups, seated row maching, shadowboxing, bag work, sparring).

Strong shoulders and traps (upright rows, standing flyes, skipping rope, LOTS of shadowboxing, etc.).

Strong Abs and Lower Back -- for conveying hip torque to the sweep of the shoulders.

Strong Quads and Calves -- Legs and abs should be seen as a pyramid which generates your power and shifting.

Strong Forearms -- for keeping the wrist aligned, and for a dense fist (underrated aspect of power punching). Wrist curls, hand squeezers, fingertip pushups, etc

The benchpress is a very good movement as it replicates the movement of the cross and the jab but will not give overall zap to the punch.

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Todd Wilson
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 9:18 PM

I use Zercher due to the lack of squat + flexibility issues with the shoulders.
### Then that's the first thing you fix.

I can do a cheat front squat however. I can't rack the bar too - no matter how hard I try. Also the tip of using a wooden strip across the forearms was a Godsend. How do Zerchers work differently to front squats?

### The same way a dumb bell bench press works differently than a barbel bench press. It's simply a different movement even though it works the same muscle groups. The bar is in a different place, this changes weight dispertion and therefore motor unit recruitment.

I understand that they are different movements but will a good zercher usually indicate a good back squat or front squat?

### Well, if you zercher 500 your squat can't be terrible, but I honestly don't know as there is not enough data collected on zerchers because the lift isn't nearly as widely used.

Is there anything wrong with Zerchers as such?

### No, you've got to do what you've got to do when working around injury. I would recommend some hack squats as well. Set the bar in the power rack just above the back of the knee and use a board under your heels to facilitate quad recruitment.

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Peter Read
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 9:38 PM

if you already know how to throw punches then the bench press will help by giving you a little more external power. the true power comes from the legs and back. heavy flys are good for improving hooking power but you need to know how to the hooks for it to work. the same thing with uppercuts and front lateral raises.

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Jeffrey Vaughn
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 9:39 PM

"Your front squat should be 85% of your back squat."
If I could do an 807 front squat I'll call Guiness Book.

Who the hell can do that???

Jeffrey Vaughn

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saad ahmed
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 9:51 PM

"Your front squat should be 85% of your back squat." If I could do an 807 front squat I'll call Guiness Book.
Who the hell can do that???

#I dont think this is an accurate figure,its impossible for me to do a front squat with 85% of my back squat and i dont squat much im only approaching 5plates.Maybe this figure implies more on olympic lifters than powerlifters.

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Jeffrey Vaughn
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 9:53 PM

You got me????
Jeffrey Vaughn

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Lionel Gilbert
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 10:19 PM

Although punching power is a lot more about technique, speed, and accuracy, having strong shoulders and tris will help increase the damage of a clean shot. Having said that I think the bench will help punching power to a great degree. However, if punching is your game you would be better served using lighter weights so that you can train your muscles to contract fast and generate the most force. Speed rules in boxing. So in essence you would want to do more of a speed type workout then max effort limit strength type training.
I do know a little something about this. I boxed for three years and before I ever set foot in the ring I had built a great bench (for my age of 16). And even before I knew what the hell I was doing in the ring I had experienced boxers, who I spared against, tell me that my technique sucked (I was new after all) but I had one hell of a punch for someone only 16 year old and at 145lbs. I guess I assumed it was all my benching because that’s all I really did from 14 – 16 years old.

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Mourad Tariq
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 10:41 PM

"who I spared against, tell me that my technique sucked (I was new after all) but I had one hell of a punch for someone only 16 year old and at 145lbs. I guess I assumed it was all my benching because that’s all I really did from 14 – 16 years old."
-probably not. Punching power is a lot like throwing a baseball, a football, etc. While strength certainly helps, some people have it and some people don't. Mechanics tend to make the most improvement. Pitchers who can throw 100 MPH are born with great arms. If at 16 you had an amazing punch, the bench may have helped slightly, but you probably just were born with a punch.

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Mourad Tariq
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 10:45 PM

'"Your front squat should be 85% of your back squat." If I could do an 807 front squat I'll call Guiness Book.
Who the hell can do that???'

- Although 85% might be a little high its only an estimate, and I would apply it to olympic full back squats without any equipment. The front squat is not a competition lift so it's not developed like the backsquat - their is no rule for depth, no gear for it, etc. Plus you can't do a powerlifting style front squat. The greatest front squat in the world is probably around 600 pounds, so powerlifters are not part of the equation. What percent of your raw full olympic squat can you front squat?

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Jeffrey Vaughn
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Saturday, August 6, 2005 10:59 PM

If I pulled my feet in and did an Olympic style squat you all would be invited to my funeral next weekend. Speak nicely of me.
I see your poiint but that was not specified until just now.

Jeffrey Vaughn

http://www.geocities.com/vaughnpower/1.html

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Roderick Reilly
Guest Biceps, too.
Sunday, August 7, 2005 12:34 AM

Oddly enough. Biceps are antagonist to the triceps, as the lats are antagonists to the shoulder and chest muscles.
I'm not saying that tricep strength is key to a powerful punch (core strength and proper delivery are more important). My point is that balanced training of various muscle groups helps impart greater speed and power to any muscle groups directly involved in a given movement.

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Nelson Nash
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Sunday, August 7, 2005 12:53 AM

"The greatest front squat in the world is probably around 600 pounds, so powerlifters are not part of the equation. What percent of your raw full olympic squat can you front squat?"
####Has to be more than 600 pounds.Heard that Ronnie Coleman can do easy 4-5 reps with 645 pounds in front squat.There are lot of lifters out there stronger than him.

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Nelson Nash
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Sunday, August 7, 2005 1:13 AM

" Your front squat should be 85% of your back squat."
Thats the stupid thing i have ever heard.

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Jim Luidl
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Sunday, August 7, 2005 9:23 AM

Pavel Tsatsouline points out that weight training is not sport specific. It makes you stronger, that is all, and that is weight training's purpose.
That being said, increased strength in the bench press provides for greater potential punching power because of the increase in the associated muslces. But, punching power must be developed with skill training specific to punching.

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Ian Elliott McCormick
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Sunday, August 7, 2005 10:02 AM

The greatest front squat, I am quite sure, is well in excess of 600lb.
http://img204.exs.cx/img204/4076/vladimirmarchuk4pn.jpg

I'm told that is 675.

An 85 kilo lifter named Dursun Sevinc front squats 280k at a bodyweight of 85k on an Ironmind tape, and he is said to have made a personal best of 300k.

Mel Siff told of Serge Reding front squatting 400k, which I find incredibly hard to belive. However, if an 85k lifter can do 300k, I wouldn't put it past Reding to do 400k.

Incidentally, I can clean more than 85% of my (full) back squat, and front squat ever so slightly more than I can clean. Of course, I stink at squats.

-Ian

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Todd Wilson
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Sunday, August 7, 2005 12:06 PM

Mourad is correct, the figure isn't high it's accurate, but it's not 85% of you powerlifting squat. It's 85% of your full back squat. Plenty of weightlifters have big full squats and they routinely train with comparable weights.

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Todd Wilson
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Sunday, August 7, 2005 12:08 PM

" Your front squat should be 85% of your back squat."
Thats the stupid thing i have ever heard.

### WHy? What should it be? 10%? 120%?

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Todd Wilson
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Sunday, August 7, 2005 12:10 PM

The front squat isn't a competitive lift no one keeps up, but 600 is not even close to what some weightlifters perform. At the world class level 600 is only normal.

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phil elliott
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Sunday, August 7, 2005 3:31 PM

Just take a bunch of steroids and hit with a baseball bat. Like Louie Simmons says, (I am paraphrasing now)I have yet to see a baseball bat and vial of drugs hit anything on its own....

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Mourad Tariq
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Sunday, August 7, 2005 11:27 PM

600 was an estimate, since its not a real lift there is no highest front squat ever! However the highest clean and jerk is about 600, so its a safe bet to assume its a d**n good front squat. I've never heard of someone cleaning more than 700 (without jerking), so I doubt there are 800 pound frontsquats.

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Dr. Squat
Administrator Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Monday, August 8, 2005 2:11 AM

I have front squatted 765 for several reps, folks (that's 8 plates). I really can't remember if I went higher...I know guys who could do this no sweat! Mitch MIgnano comes to mind...Olympic team 1980 (the team Carter screwed)...he made the team as a 242 pounder, and worked out with me. He did it. So did Randy Wilson (National champ 275 in PL), who also worked out with me. But we trained different, I gotta say...guys today...dunno what the hell they're doing! I was only a 220 pounder back then. Ugh!

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Dr. Squat
Administrator Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Monday, August 8, 2005 2:25 AM

BTW....punching power is all about hand speed and hand size. Period. Big hands moving fast are gonna hurt you without hurting themselves. Trained a lot of boxers over the years, folks...baseball players and defensive linemen too. These athletes need fast hands, and the bigger the better (especially for boxers and defensive linemen). You cannot "teach" that beyond a certain extent, it's true. But athletes CAN learn how to be MUCH faster than they ordinarily might be! Cool drills accomodate this sort of thing...

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Mark G
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Monday, August 8, 2005 2:42 AM

Regarding back strength and punching power- since your back muscles brake the punch at the end of it's path, it makes sense that a strong back would allow you to snap punches harder/faster. Strong brakes = more willing to hit the gas

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Darrin Smith
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Wednesday, August 10, 2005 4:12 PM

I tend to agree.
Back in my college days in the 80's I roomed with a linebacker for a division 1 program. This guy benched 440 and I was lucky to get 285 back then.

Anyway, one day we are at a gym with a heavy bag and he hits it...and I mean gives it his best shot. Then I take my turn and the difference was like night and day. He, with his 440 bench and 240 pound frame wasn't anywhere near as good of a hitter as I was at a 285 pound bench and 190 pound frame.

Now, I had taken karate as a kid and we focused on punching ability, so some of this may be explained by pure skill, but I think that some of it just had to do with speed.

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John Vendetti
Guest Question about Punching Power and Bench Press.
Friday, August 12, 2005 3:08 PM

I my be wrong but I think punchers are born not made .Their punching power can be improved .I remember Joe Frazier on Super Stars years ago .He had the most powerfull left hook in the game .he weighed 220 and couldn't press I should say power press 170 off the rack .I like the boxing term when throwing a punch " Sit down when you punch "meaning get your lower body into the punch .