Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield

Chris Doyle
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Sunday, November 27, 2005 6:24 PM

I am hoping to run 60m sprints as some time in the future. I have just been reading Zatsirosky at Todd Wilson's suggestion. He seems to suggest that lifting 3 x Bw in the squat or more is overkill and won't enhance speed much more.
I am not sure what my back squat would be . But I squat 2x BW in Zerhcer Squat from the rack 220lb /440lb. I could easily drop by bw by around 15lb/20lb and maintain this if not more a little more. I'll hit 500lb ish by New Year or shortly thereafter.

Should I try and increase to 3 x BW or make an effor to the learn the back squat? Do I need it anyway? or just focus on rate of force development?

Any input is appreciated thanks guys. and to Todd for telling me to read it properly.

thanks Chris

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Todd Wilson
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Sunday, November 27, 2005 7:09 PM

I am hoping to run 60m sprints as some time in the future. I have just been reading Zatsirosky at Todd Wilson's suggestion. He seems to suggest that lifting 3 x Bw in the squat or more is overkill and won't enhance speed much more.
### HIs recommendation there wasn't outright. In other words, he wasn't saying that a 3xbw squat was useless for sprinting. He was simpy trying to make a point about optimum strength. I.e., a table tennis player does not need to powerclean 500 pounds. Nor does basketball player need to bench 500. It depends on the athlete and the sport. Ben Johnson squatted about 3xbw around the same time he won/lost the world recond in the sprint. Carl Lewis in that same race couldn't have thought about squatting the weight Ben did. Yet both set world records.

Should I try and increase to 3 x BW or make an effor to the learn the back squat? Do I need it anyway?

### I've never seen a back squat hurt anyones athletic development. As for the zercher, I don't know, I've never heard of any sprinters using it. What your dead lift like. Increasing it can help your start time.

or just focus on rate of force development?

### You need to do this, but not "just" do this.

Any input is appreciated thanks guys. and to Todd for telling me to read it properly.

### I learn something new everytime I re-read it.

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Mourad Tariq
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Sunday, November 27, 2005 11:01 PM

Chris -
The back squat is not that difficult to learn, in fact the Zercher is more of a specialized lift. Backsquatting will help your sprints more than Zercher. Why are you holding off of learning how to squat?

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Chris Doyle
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Monday, November 28, 2005 5:17 AM

Mourad , my very inflexible shoulders make back squatting very uncomfortable and dangerous. The rack at the gym is narrow and I risk crushing my hands putting it back, as my grip is so wide. Todd my deadlifting is poor, now I am quite short 5"5. It is at 130kg right now with sumo, although I have done 170kg sumo and conventional with an ez curl bar and OL plate , real bad set-up in my last gym(college).
Bench is poor too- 120kg I can run quickly with 300lb wheelbarrow up a 10-15 degree incline for 30/40m though and step with two 35kg dumbbells 15 inch bench for a short set. DB clean right hand 105lb +

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Chris Doyle
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Monday, November 28, 2005 11:16 AM

How about DB cleans at 60-70% 3 sets of 5 each High pulls at 60 % Zerchers at 60% Deadlift at 60 % do i need to press? buidling by 5 % each week to 80%?
what do u think guys?

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Mourad Tariq
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Monday, November 28, 2005 7:23 PM

If you absolutley cannot back squat, front squat. It's better for your goals than only doing zercher squats. Also is the flexibilty issue due to a deformity or injury or are you just tight. It it's the second answer... get flexible.

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Chris Doyle
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Tuesday, November 29, 2005 6:03 AM

Thanks Mourad , I do not think it is a deformity , I have just always had very tight shoulders.
I can see why the back squat would be better due to the greater load. I have been practising with the empty bar roo. Why front squats? Should I be capabe of a greater load. Don't they involve quads much more than zerchers ? Zerhcers don't really hit the quads much I think? I have never got sore in the quads, only on my first front squat attempts. I can't do the rack position either.

I only do zerchers because I can do them.

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Mourad Tariq
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Tuesday, November 29, 2005 6:36 AM

Zerchers are more similar to a deadlift than a squat. They are usually an assitance or axillary exercise that one uses if they already squat, zercher squat is sorta a misnomer, they are not a squat substitute.
Back squats are better for many reasons besides a better load. You say you zercher around 500 lb or so? If thats the case, their are many world class 60m sprinters who improve performance backsquatting with a load much less than you zercher. I acutally know that Maurice Green has trained with squats with 225 pounds (and accomodating resitance) as the most iron he puts on the bar. Full backsquats are just an all around better exercise than zerchers.

How is it that you find front squats and backsquats uncomfortable but you hold 500 pounds in the crook of your arms. Ouch. Also, look into buying a saftey squat bar if the flexibility thing too big a problem to overcome.

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Chris Doyle
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Tuesday, November 29, 2005 8:10 AM

Really I thought those guys all squat 3X 4X bw. I can only do 200kg now 440lbs , I suspect I'll get 500lb relatively soon though. It is starting to give me forearm problems, so I would rather stop doing them.
Why are back squats superior though? Also would lunges be a good exercise? It may help me gain some confidence with the bar on my back. What do you think of weighted leg swings? It was in Zatsiorsky's book?

Does Greene use a lot of band resistance?

thanks Chris

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Mourad Tariq
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Tuesday, November 29, 2005 12:38 PM

3x 4x bodyweight? Absolutely not. The sprinter most known to lift heavy and not do full olympic squats is Ben Johnson. In Speed Trap Francis says Johnson would squat up to 500 pounds. That's less than 3x bodyweight and thats the one of the heaviest squatting sprinters. Others like linford Christie (bodyweight 215) were NO way squatting 3x or 4x bodyweight (860!). In fact the only people who consistently squat 3x-4x bodyweight are probably powerlifters.
Now... Thats not to say that track and field guys are not great athletes with ultra explosive lower bodys. If Green wanted he probably could become a powerlifter and squat 4x bodyweight. 225 was not listed as his 1RM, it is the most iron he uses in training (at least at one time). However, sprinters use weight training to supplement thier running, just like lifters use lifts like zerchers to supplement their lifting. Sprinters don't get hung up on numbers they get hung up on times.

Lunges are good, Im not sure what weighted leg swings are, reverse hyper is good if thats what you mention, but full back squats are better, and still not as good as track work. Greene mostly does speed squats and uses bands and chains at 225. Drop the zerchers, dont risk injury. Focus on the track and less on numbers of weight lifted.

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Chris Doyle
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Tuesday, November 29, 2005 12:50 PM

Thanks a lot Mourad. I thought Ben Johnson was typical of abilities. I read somewhere he could deadlift 800lb.

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Mourad Tariq
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Tuesday, November 29, 2005 9:04 PM

Ben Johnson never deadlifted 800 pounds. I think you are approaching your goal in the wrong way, Chris. If you want to get better as at the 60m sprint you must understand that first and foremost this is improved by training in the 60m sprint. I know that big story about the mexico city study where lifters had faster 20m sprints and verticals than the track and field athletes, but frankly I don't buy it. It has not been duplicated. The fastest sprinters are still sprinters.
Also, as a sprinter DO NOT compare yourself to Ben Johnson. Even if all sprinters squatted 3x bodyweight, it would still not be advisable for you to go try and get a 3x bodyweight squat and then start sprinting. Like a powerlifter uses assitance exercises to aid his big three, you need to see weights as an assistance to aid your 60m. For example what is your 60m? 7 seconds? 8 seconds? The advice you need depends a lot on your time. Todd Wilson recommended deadlifting to improve your start. Are you a slow starter? Do you have bad speed endurance? Low top speed? Program your lifting and training around bringing up the weak points in your sprinting, do make goals of big numbers your goal because you think big squat = world class sprinter.

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Todd Wilson
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Tuesday, November 29, 2005 10:47 PM

Excellent points......
The studies from Mexico were valid, and to a degree have been validated, but understand the weightlifters had faster 20M times, they got smoked the rest of the way by sprinters.

The point is having a tone of strength and speed strength is clearly beneficial at the start. However, there's no benefit of having a great start if you have poor top speed or speed endurance. If your ahead of everyone at 40M yet decelerate faster than everyone else, you lose.

In an article in the NSCA Journal in 1988 there was a comparison of maximal strength performances in the full squat and bench press of various athletes of various qualifications......

Sprinters averaged a 200 kg squat. And I am not positive, but I believe that that was taken from sub 10s times whatever year the data was collected which I do not know. Food for thought.

One thing I think should be made clear however, is squatting 200kg did not make those guys sub 10s sprinters. It likely made them 10.1 as opposed to 10.3 sprinters and technique and other strength work got them under 10s. ANd I think that is what Mourad was emphasizing. If a bog squat made you fast powerlifters would be the worlds best sprinters......clearly not the case.

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Mourad Tariq
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Wednesday, November 30, 2005 1:24 AM

Todd-
I've see the study a lot, it's one of the things that got me into oly lifting, however I don't beleive the results would be the same in 2005. Do you?

Their are a few reasons I don't. One reason is I have been around track and field my whole life, some of my research is even about sprint modeling; and I have never came across an athlete who is not in track and field (or elite football, or rugby, or another sprint heavy sport), whose 20m time cannot be improved in a few hours. The point being that extra explosive strength of a weightlifter definitly helps the start (make a weak sprinter lift and its the first thing that improves), but.... the 1st twenty meters are much more determined by running mechanics.

If you take a weightlifter who hasn't sprinted, he may be explosive but the moment he leaves the blocks his head pops up his chest rises and he doesn't dig. Doesn't matter how strong you are, if you have anything less than world class mechanics, reaction time, and starting skill you will not beat a sprinter. Maybe a vertical jump, maybe even 5 meters... but 20 meters? I just don't buy it.

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Todd Wilson
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Wednesday, November 30, 2005 12:29 PM

I've see the study a lot, it's one of the things that got me into oly lifting, however I don't beleive the results would be the same in 2005. Do you?
### May not be statistically identical, but I think it would be very close.

Their are a few reasons I don't. One reason is I have been around track and field my whole life, some of my research is even about sprint modeling; and I have never came across an athlete who is not in track and field (or elite football, or rugby, or another sprint heavy sport), whose 20m time cannot be improved in a few hours.

### I agree fully, furthermore besides immeidate improvemnt with even slight mechanics adjustments, given say two months, and a sprint time could go down drastically in some individuals.

The point being that extra explosive strength of a weightlifter definitly helps the start (make a weak sprinter lift and its the first thing that improves), but.... the 1st twenty meters are much more determined by running mechanics.

### I agree, but that incredible explosive power is so great that it makes all the difference in the world in the start. As you I am sure well know, the start is all about digging and getting out of the blocks and getting into position so that one can run.

If you take a weightlifter who hasn't sprinted, he may be explosive but the moment he leaves the blocks his head pops up his chest rises and he doesn't dig. Doesn't matter how strong you are, if you have anything less than world class mechanics, reaction time, and starting skill you will not beat a sprinter. Maybe a vertical jump, maybe even 5 meters... but 20 meters? I just don't buy it.

### Well, I think 20 meters is about as far as that strength is going to take them, but understand this. If you have a population of sprinters and weightlifters and we tested them. SOme of the weightlifters may do exactly what you described. BUt others, might perform it almost flawlessly as well. I presrcibed to Charlie Francis's mantra of "Looks right flys right." IN other words, the better the athlete, the more balanced his development, the more likely he is to perform basic sporting skills wih better technique. For example. The power snatch is a very athletic movement, it's my expierience that the more "athletic" athletes pick it up quicker, or become more comfortable with it quicker. Some after about 3 sets of 3 reps can perform a perfect one. Therefore, if we are to assume that the weightlifters have great strength and speed strength, etc. It seems to me that they would more closely resemble a sprinter coming out of the blocks most of the time, i.e., head down and digging. It's naturally where they would discover their power and strength most efficiently used. Now, I was not there in 1968, I don't know. They're strength may have been enough to overcome it regardless. I do know, that I have seen some football players and other athletes that have what would not be considered optimal running form, yet they are faster than some track athletes (not necessarily world class understand) that are fast and do have respectable technique. Sometimes it's just hard to beat strength, power, and speed. Also, do you hav any split times for 20M, I probably do, but I'm not sure where.....point being, I don't think it's that far at all. Granted, I would say that would be a weightlifters competitive limit, as between (correct here if I'm wrong) 15 or maybe 20 and 30 meters the sprinter hits his stride and starts the acceleration phase to top speed. Therefore, I think it would only be an athlete like a weightlifter who could potentially have the explosiveness to stay wth them for 20M.

The reason I believe this, is that the olympic lifts build speed strength better than any other method. There's no contest. People around the web argue for and against them, those that do not use them (i.e., the variatoin of not the full lifts) in the training of speed-strength athletes simply do not understand the implications and what they are depriving the athlete of, they do not know how to teach them, or they are lazy. It's usually a combination of the above. I've seen the difference an off-season of power snatches and powercleans can make. I can imagine what these movements can do if that's all you did besides squat.

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Mourad Tariq
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Wednesday, November 30, 2005 2:52 PM

Todd - You bring up some good points, however I still don't believe the study would be reproduced in 2005, although I would like to see it attempted. If you go look at the video, and watch a lumbering taller athlete, a carl lewis/donavan bailey (usually 100/200m guys), you will see how lewis ran his 9.86 in tokoyo despite getting out of the blocks last and staying in last place for about 20m. It's amazing, he just doesn't decelerate. Carl Lewis is maybe the greatest athlete of all time, but... he hardly touched weights.
Watch Johnson in Seoul or Rome (Johnson was 60m/100m guy) and you will see some of the most explosive starts ever. This is a guy who lifted a lot of weights; and although he didn't put up the numbers of a weightlifter in his class, you have to imagine the law of diminishing gains kicks it somewhere after a 500 pound squat...

The Johnson model is the current model for how sprinters train. Maurice Green the greatest active sprinter (9.79 in .1 meter tailwind), has splits almost identical to johnson as well as the fastest 60m time in the world. Maurice Greene is shorter 5-9 and more muscular than the old taller sprinters like lewis and bailey. In 2005 you simply wont see a sprinter like lewis, lean and long. Coaches found that starting strength can be so much improved while at the same time maintaining or hardly losing high top speed that nobody goes the lumbering lewis style anymore. It's a shame, because styles make races, and seeing someone get caught but a slow starter is becoming something of the past.

My point is in 1968 smart explosive weight training was integrated into sprinting. After Johnson, nobody makes that mistake. Their is also the possibility of drug use in 1968 for weightlifters, but in 1968 sprinters were not yet using drugs. In 2005 sprinters are so much closer to weightlifters in starting strength, they I would be really surprised if their mechanical advantages doesn't make their 20m starts faster than weightlifters.

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Todd Wilson
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Wednesday, November 30, 2005 4:10 PM

Todd - You bring up some good points, however I still don't believe the study would be reproduced in 2005, although I would like to see it attempted.
### Well, I think it would for the most part.....again not statistically identical. The only thing is many more sprinters lift weights now and are stronger than sprinters of that era. SO that might make a difference.

If you go look at the video, and watch a lumbering taller athlete, a carl lewis/donavan bailey (usually 100/200m guys), you will see how lewis ran his 9.86 in tokoyo despite getting out of the blocks last and staying in last place for about 20m.

### Exactly, my point. A weightlifter who is much stronger with much greater starting strength would have a decided advantage in those first 20M.

It's amazing, he just doesn't decelerate. Carl Lewis is maybe the greatest athlete of all time, but... he hardly touched weights.

### I agree. He could maintain speed better than anyone, but as you observed, his start is slow. That's one thing sprint coaches have always debated about, would Lewis or would he not have been better with a better start. Because after the start he could essentially catch up to and outrun anybody.

Watch Johnson in Seoul or Rome (Johnson was 60m/100m guy) and you will see some of the most explosive starts ever. This is a guy who lifted a lot of weights; and although he didn't put up the numbers of a weightlifter in his class, you have to imagine the law of diminishing gains kicks it somewhere after a 500 pound squat...

### Not necessarily, assuming (in the case of the weightlifter) that the explosive nature of the olympic lifts are what's being primarily trained. The squat is the assistance lift that simply helps recovery in the catch portion of the lift. They are getting their explosiveness from the explosive nature of the olympic lifts, though their maximal strength base is coming partially from the squat.

The Johnson model is the current model for how sprinters train. Maurice Green the greatest active sprinter (9.79 in .1 meter tailwind), has splits almost identical to johnson as well as the fastest 60m time in the world. Maurice Greene is shorter 5-9 and more muscular than the old taller sprinters like lewis and bailey. In 2005 you simply wont see a sprinter like lewis, lean and long.

### Yeah, but I have predicted that in the next 10-20 years (i.e., 3-4 Olympic cycles) you will see taller slightly muscular sprinters. I.e., Lewis like sprinters with 15-25 more pounds of muscle. We'll just have to wait and see.

Coaches found that starting strength can be so much improved while at the same time maintaining or hardly losing high top speed that nobody goes the lumbering lewis style anymore. It's a shame, because styles make races, and seeing someone get caught but a slow starter is becoming something of the past.

### Evolution of training methods, it's fun to watch!

My point is in 1968 smart explosive weight training was integrated into sprinting.

### Was or was not? This seems unclear as to what your saying.....???

After Johnson, nobody makes that mistake. Their is also the possibility of drug use in 1968 for weightlifters, but in 1968 sprinters were not yet using drugs.

### You sure about that? Assuming this is so, which I strongly disagree.......as using drugs does not necessitate that you look like been Johnson, one thing that has always been said about Carl is that he good not only because of his ability but because he was never caught using.........but assuming that in ྀ weightlifters use and sprinters didn't.....if the test was done today and the weightlifters were not the fastest for 20M, you could easily reverse that argument as track and field is one of the most drug polluted sports in the world where as Weightlifting is one of the cleaness. In 2005.

In 2005 sprinters are so much closer to weightlifters in starting strength, they I would be really surprised if their mechanical advantages doesn't make their 20m starts faster than weightlifters.

### I agree they're closer, but they are still so far away. Forwards in the NBA are so much stronger than they were 10-20 years ago, but they still don't want anything to do with a tight end.

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Rob Gray
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Thursday, December 1, 2005 12:16 PM

you guys are forgetting that OLY lifters back then were more strength dominant due to the press. Now Oly lifters are much more speed-strength orientated, just look at the snatches of todays lifters compared to the 60's. It is possible that lifters would do even better today over a short distance.
look at the Turkish lifter Sagir (gold in 2004 in 77 kg class)he looks thinner than a sprinter and snatched 172.5 and jerked 202.5. He moves so fast under the bar you can barely see it.

oh and Ben's squat numbers were 600 lbs for sets of six below parallel according to Charlie's books.

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Re: Program for 60 meter sprint
« Reply #1 on Dec 8, 2005, 8:10am »

Mourad Tariq
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Friday, December 2, 2005 11:45 AM

### I agree. He could maintain speed better than anyone, but as you observed, his start is slow. That's one thing sprint coaches have always debated about, would Lewis or would he not have been better with a better start. Because after the start he could essentially catch up to and outrun anybody. ### Yeah, but I have predicted that in the next 10-20 years (i.e., 3-4 Olympic cycles) you will see taller slightly muscular sprinters. I.e., Lewis like sprinters with 15-25 more pounds of muscle. We'll just have to wait and see.
- Well in one case we are already there. Asafa Powell is Lewis with 15 pounds of muscle. He just made it big with his 9.77 in 1.4 (which is still trumped by greenes 9.79 in .1), but... he has been a buzz for years in track and field. He has been called carl lewis with a start.

"My point is in 1968 smart explosive weight training was integrated into sprinting."

### Was or was not? This seems unclear as to what your saying.....???

- Yeah, typo, should be not integrated into sprinting.

### You sure about that? Assuming this is so, which I strongly disagree.......as using drugs does not necessitate that you look like been Johnson, one thing that has always been said about Carl is that he good not only because of his ability but because he was never caught using.........but assuming that in (68)weightlifters use and sprinters didn't.....if the test was done today and the weightlifters were not the fastest for 20M, you could easily reverse that argument as track and field is one of the most drug polluted sports in the world where as Weightlifting is one of the cleaness. In 2005.

- Sure, of course. But the sprinters would still win. Weightlifting is pretty clean (the slow progress in records is perfect evidence) and track is not one of the most drug polluted sports (uhhh... bodybuilding) but drug use much more widespread than in 1968. I'm not calling out weighlifters and claiming all their success in 1968 is due to drugs drugs drugs! I'm instead claiming that in 1968 lifters were close (or due to testing, in front) of todays technological level of performance enhancement methods. 1968 weightlifting training was sophisticated, drug use was beginning, lifters were explosive. 1968 track use was basically going to the track and running. Also, Lewis may not have tested positive for drugs, but he was definitly using. Though there is no certain evidence of anabolics, he did test postive many times for amphetamines.

--- Finally one last point... It's a tough debate because I doubt we will see the study repeated... BUT tell me honestly, if you were to test 2005 oly lifters 20m sprint vs 1968 oly lifters would do you think you would see? A vast improvement, no improvement? I would bet you would see no improvement or only a slight improvement. First of all the lifters are not that much stronger in lifting than in 1968, and lifting only has a carryover effect to speed... Second, I doubt they have gotten much practice on their starts since 1968. And third, they were explosive then and now they are a little more explosive, so at most their times could be a little better...

However, there isn't much data from 1968 on sprinters, but there is from 1984. And if you compare 1984 to present, and look at the sprinters times, they have gotten A LOT faster in the first 20 meters. In fact if you compare splits; that's where you notice the greatest difference. Data indicates that nobodys found out how to maintain top speed much better than Lewis could, but almost everyone has made their start a lot better.

*My point is weightlifters in 1968 were from being strong and explosive and thanks to training in 2005 are a little stronger and a little more explosive.

*Sprinters went from being weak and not explosive in 1968 to using training methods that have made them stronger and explosive. Sprinters were essentially working with the "beginner" effect for elite athletes. This caused them to make much more gains that saturated oly lifters.

How can you expect the results to be similar?

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Todd Wilson
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Friday, December 2, 2005 4:33 PM

Sure, of course. But the sprinters would still win. Weightlifting is pretty clean (the slow progress in records is perfect evidence) and track is not one of the most drug polluted sports (uhhh... bodybuilding)
### Well, I consider it more of a contest than sport. A sport has an objective outcome/winner. Contest have subjective outcomes/winners/losers. Just my opinion on the matter.

but drug use much more widespread than in 1968. I'm not calling out weighlifters and claiming all their success in 1968 is due to drugs drugs drugs! I'm instead claiming that in 1968 lifters were close (or due to testing, in front) of todays technological level of performance enhancement methods. 1968 weightlifting training was sophisticated, drug use was beginning, lifters were explosive. 1968 track use was basically going to the track and running.

### I would disagree, in the US certainly, but IMO internationally this was the beginning so to speak of us seeing more technically trained srpinters.

Also, Lewis may not have tested positive for drugs, but he was definitly using. Though there is no certain evidence of anabolics, he did test postive many times for amphetamines.

### I wasn't aware of that....interesting.

--- Finally one last point... It's a tough debate because I doubt we will see the study repeated... BUT tell me honestly, if you were to test 2005 oly lifters 20m sprint vs 1968 oly lifters would do you think you would see? A vast improvement, no improvement? I would bet you would see no improvement or only a slight improvement.

### I think it would be slight.

First of all the lifters are not that much stronger in lifting than in 1968, and lifting only has a carryover effect to speed... Second, I doubt they have gotten much practice on their starts since 1968. And third, they were explosive then and now they are a little more explosive, so at most their times could be a little better...

However, there isn't much data from 1968 on sprinters, but there is from 1984. And if you compare 1984 to present, and look at the sprinters times, they have gotten A LOT faster in the first 20 meters. In fact if you compare splits; that's where you notice the greatest difference. Data indicates that nobodys found out how to maintain top speed much better than Lewis could, but almost everyone has made their start a lot better.

*My point is weightlifters in 1968 were from being strong and explosive and thanks to training in 2005 are a little stronger and a little more explosive.

*Sprinters went from being weak and not explosive in 1968 to using training methods that have made them stronger and explosive. Sprinters were essentially working with the "beginner" effect for elite athletes. This caused them to make much more gains that saturated oly lifters.

How can you expect the results to be similar?

### Well, I agree with your points to an extent......sprinters have definitely become stronger and more powerful, but I'm just not convinced they are strong enough to compete with the explosive strength of a weightlifter of the same caliber.......I'll email Carlo and see if he'll come look at this thread and see if he can offer anything......Interesting discussion though........

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Carlo Buzzichelli
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Friday, December 2, 2005 6:06 PM

I guess the study in Mexico was done with 20m standing or triple point start to reduce the skill factor involved with the blocks.
I would consider the following as well:

a) Acceleration angles are more "instinctual" than max speed angles

b) Sprinters' mechanic is different when they run short sprints than when they run the 100m

c) A world level sprinter is a freak when he runs the 100m more so than when he runs the 20m (2.90" on average from the blocks w/out reaction time when he runs them for the 100m)

For these reason I believe some weightlifters can be faster than sprinters over 20m.

Best,

Carlo Buzzichelli

PPS, SSC, PCC, CPT

2003 T&F World Championship Accredited Sprint Coach

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Todd Wilson
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Friday, December 2, 2005 6:15 PM

Thanks Carlo!
I was interested in the split (2.90" according to you).

Maybe Mourad will drop everything for thext 2 years of hiw life and duplicate the Study in Beijing in ང. What better could you have to do?

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Carlo Buzzichelli
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Friday, December 2, 2005 6:17 PM

A few corrections:
a) Asafa has not been a buzz for years as he has not gone under 10" untill September of last year.

b) Donovan Bailey is not a sprinter of a different era than Maurice, in fact the two competed against each other.

c) You guys are misusing "starting strength", as starting strength is more important for top speed, when contact times are reduced, than for the start, which requires maximal (especially for blocks clearance) and explosive strength.

d) There are not such things as the "modern training model" or "modern sprinter bodytype". The best sprinters have trained very differently strength wise. Also, the 2003 World Champion is an example of slim sprinter.

Best,

C.B.

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Mourad Tariq
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Friday, December 2, 2005 6:36 PM

"Asafa has not been a buzz for years as he has not gone under 10" untill September of last year."
- I first heard Powells name in Jan 2004, when his a colleauge of Dapena's (the sprint researcher) predicted him as olympic champion. (I heard his name again when he was blamed for choking)

"Donovan Bailey is not a sprinter of a different era than Maurice, in fact the two competed against each other. "

- I didn't say they were of a different era, I claimed a different sprinting style; Maurice a faster starter, and Donovan a taller runner more similar to Lewis. Also there careers overlapped; but Maurice rose as Bailey fell, and Green was a much better sprinter.

"There are not such things as the "modern training model" or "modern sprinter bodytype". The best sprinters have trained very differently strength wise. Also, the 2003 World Champion is an example of slim sprinter."

- Well, I don't know every sprint coach, but I have heard that Johnson opened coaches eyes to the necessity of weight training and starting speed, which made almost all world class sprinters integrate some amount of weight training.

- Good example w/Kim Collins. He is quite an anomoly being both lean and short. Is he a 200m/100m runner?

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Mourad Tariq
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Friday, December 2, 2005 6:40 PM

"Maybe Mourad will drop everything for thext 2 years of hiw life and duplicate the Study in Beijing in ང. What better could you have to do? "
- Heh. It would be an interesting study. I doubt it's possible now though; as I don't know if world champion athletes would risk pulling a muscle in an all out 20m sprint for science. Comparing olympic lifters 20m sprints to 20m splits would probably shift the advantage to the runners who run outdoors and with blocks.

- Todd, do you know the details of the study, for example; 20m times, and other tests done? It would be interesting to compare lifters and tf atheltes in broad jump, vertical (i think this was done), and all sort of sprint splits to see if and sprinters overtake lifters.

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Carlo Buzzichelli
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Friday, December 2, 2005 6:43 PM

Kim is not a strong 200m contender with a 20.20" PB since 2001; he is probably too short for the longer event.
C.B.

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Todd Wilson
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Friday, December 2, 2005 7:54 PM

c) You guys are misusing "starting strength", as starting strength is more important for top speed, when contact times are reduced, than for the start, which requires maximal (especially for blocks clearance) and explosive strength.
### Could you further explain this? I agree that the contact phase being such a short period would require exceptional starting strength in order for top speed to be optimal, but getting out of the blocks, at the start, while explosive and maximal strength are what get's the athlete "out and up" so to speak, starting strength would allow them to get out of the blocks (or off of the starting line even if blocks were not used) quicker would it not?

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Todd Wilson
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Friday, December 2, 2005 8:07 PM

Todd, do you know the details of the study, for example; 20m times, and other tests done? It would be interesting to compare lifters and tf atheltes in broad jump, vertical (i think this was done), and all sort of sprint splits to see if and sprinters overtake lifters.
### Well, from what I remember it was done on a variety of athletes to initially determine "who the best athletes were." Well, obviously the results ended up being all over the board. But they tested the 20m sprint maybe 40 or 60, I can't remember, vertical jump, broad jump, maybe long jump, ......etc. various athletic test. I might try looking tomoroow, it's probably available online somewhere, and I also remember seeing some discussion about it at a weightlifting forum not long ago. Also, I might as well qualify it as well, it was technically speaking less of a study per se, and more of a gathering of statistics, if you care to get semantical enough to differentiate between the two.

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Carlo Buzzichelli
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Saturday, December 3, 2005 4:14 AM

Todd,
You guys were referring to starting strength as the ability to accelerate, a mistake very often done by coaches of all sports.

Surely, all components of the force-time curve are important all the time, including at the start.

A high acyclic starting strength, turning on as many MU as possible without the elastic-reactive component, will get you out of the blocks faster. But an élite sprinter has 3x more time to get close to his Fmm at the start than at max speed, for this reason maximal strength is more important then than later.

Best,

C.B.

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Todd Wilson
User advice on programm design for 60m sprint
Saturday, December 3, 2005 12:14 PM

You guys were referring to starting strength as the ability to accelerate, a mistake very often done by coaches of all sports.

### Oh, well, I would agree with you....my mention of it, I meant it was beneficial for the start.....specifically, when the athlete made their first move out of the blocks. The acceleration (in the first 20M) correct me if I'm wrong is mostly maximal strength. Not that explosive strength is not involved, but relatively speaking......

Surely, all components of the force-time curve are important all the time, including at the start.

A high acyclic starting strength, turning on as many MU as possible without the elastic-reactive component, will get you out of the blocks faster.

### Right, that was my understanding and point.

But an élite sprinter has 3x more time to get close to his Fmm at the start than at max speed, for this reason maximal strength is more important then than later.

### Makes sense......appreciate the input Carlo.