Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield

max Müller
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Friday, November 25, 2005 4:15 PM

How should I train if my goal is maximal strength and power without any weight gain! (but maintaining my muscle mass?)
Is it also possible to train strength endurance at the same time?

thanxs a lot

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Doctor Morbius
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Friday, November 25, 2005 4:54 PM

I'm not sure about maximizing strength & force with zero weight gain, but you can maximize them with minimum weight gain by doing few reps per set. That is unless you happen to be one of the small percentage of people who thrive on low reps.
As far as maximizing strength endurance at the same time I'm not sure. Sounds like conflicting goals.

Maximize Strength / Minimize Weight Gain / Maximinze Strength Endurance - pick any two.

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Jim Luidl
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Friday, November 25, 2005 5:09 PM

Use compound exercises - Squats, Presses and Pulls.
Keep reps low - 5

Keep volume low - 2 worksets.

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Friday, November 25, 2005 5:40 PM

2 worksets will seldom be enough to elicit strength gains, though they can help maintain it.
When using maximal weights, sets should be in the 4-12 range per exercise.

Exercise selection, total volume, total training intensity and diet will determine strength and/or size gains.

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Kim Baugher
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How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Friday, November 25, 2005 9:59 PM

Diet has a lot to do with this as well. You can't put on more weight if you don't take in a caloric excess. You could, however, induce favorable partitioning - same body weight, lower body fat %.- assuming you eat and train correctly.

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Graham C
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Friday, November 25, 2005 11:16 PM

plyometrics?

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Jim Luidl
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Saturday, November 26, 2005 12:28 AM

Disagree with you Todd. So does science and empirical evidence. There are plenty of examples out there. The question was very general and he got a general answer from me. Nor did I say that it was the best way to achieve maximal srength gains. Without knowing his sport, goals, backgroud, etc. there's not much more detail to give.

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 1:21 AM

Disagree with you Todd. So does science and empirical evidence.
### Can you give some examples, as I am aware of neither science or empirical evidence that suggest 2 sets of 5 or less reps is enough to consistently elicit strength gains. It may be possible for about 3-6 workouts, but not any more. There is a minimal threshold volume, that must be obtained.

There are plenty of examples out there.

### Again, please provide them, as I'm not aware of any. It's my understanding that science and empirical evidence suggest the opposite.

The question was very general

### I agree.

and he got a general answer from me.

### I happen to disagree with it.

Nor did I say that it was the best way to achieve maximal srength gains. Without knowing his sport, goals, backgroud, etc. there's not much more detail to give.

### That's true, but seldom is less than 4-5 sets in low (i.e., 1-5) rep range going to elicit much of a relative strength response.

Also, minimization of the eccentric portion of the lift will prevent unwanted mass gains.

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max Müller
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 4:45 AM

Ok! So i will do 5-10 sets Maxeffort Low rep work once per week per Movment group ( Leg , Pushing structure , Pulling structure)
What about speed work?

Will this maintain my muscle mass?

Endurance improvment should be possible if cross brige selection is the goal! I only know studys that show that hyperthrophie is contraproductive to endurance! My question is how to implement endurance work? ( Endurance is not so important, my main goal would be improving my relative stength!)

Thanks

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Chris Doyle
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 7:54 AM

IMO just drill the movement a lot with lighter weights and do one two heavy single or double every few weeks. Eat very little and take lots of supplements, worked for me for about 3 months last year.
I disagree with Todd too ( though I value his input as he knows what will work for more people than just me.) But I think you should use higher reps for cycles to recover. I am relative beginner but the following has certainly worked for me so far. I guess you could argue the assistance work helps a lot.

Zerchers I do much less volume than that f I work a warm-up set of around 6-10 60kg then keep adding 2 20kg so 100kg double 140kg double 200kg max then go for a max in the movement I can't use higher reps on heavier percentages I just not capable of doing it.

Do maybe one two assistance exercise usually standing abs. DB cleans and presses or snatches

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 10:25 AM

I disagree with Todd too ( though I value his input as he knows what will work for more people than just me.) But I think you should use higher reps for cycles to recover.
### I never said that this was ill-advised. See me article on training women, and I discuss (briefly) how to use undulating periodization in order to control relative strength and/or hypertrophy gains. One cannot use maximal weights indefinitely, the nervous system can't take it. It will get to the point where you can't lift the weight.

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Nelson Nash
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Saturday, November 26, 2005 10:26 AM

Gosh!Chris you are a Zerchers Freak.

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Chris Doyle
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Saturday, November 26, 2005 10:39 AM

Yep Todd, I have reached that point. I am definetely a beginner wrt the Squat. Using a shortish cycle may keep his strength level very high while dropping weight for say 2 /3 months.
Nelson I intend to stop using Zerchers at 500lb ish, I am not really that much of a glutton for punishment. Not sure what the crossover will be with back squat but there is much less lower back involvement.

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Chris Doyle
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 10:39 AM

Viel Glueck Max!

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 11:26 AM

Yep Todd, I have reached that point. I am definetely a beginner wrt the Squat.
### Am I lost or is this somehow relevant?

Using a shortish cycle may keep his strength level very high while dropping weight for say 2 /3 months.

### No one has said anything about dropping weight, but simply maximizing relative strength.

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Jim Luidl
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 11:44 AM

Let's See examples -
Me Ed Coan Doug Furnas Kirk Karwoski Shane Hammond Dave Waddington Thousand of martial artists

Now, let's be clear. This is the type of training they used as advanced lifters. Generally 1-2 worksets in upper body work and 1 set for squats and deadlifts. These men lifted a lot of iron over the yars, and put in a lot of foundation work to get where they were.

A typical bench workout for Coan was

Bench Press 2 worksets Close Grip 2 worksets Incline 2 workset

Total of 6 worksets.

But two worksets per movement nonetheless.

The question was: How do I gain strength without gainin size.

Not - I'm a powerlifter and want to gain strength without gaining size, et al. Very general question, with no qualifications. So the basic answer is - Heavy weight, low volume, basic compund movements, keep caloric intake low.

Why is this correct? Well we know that the two most important factors are time under tension and the tension itself.

The heavier the weight you move, the stronger you get. It's that simple. Why, beause strength is not just a matter of muscle size. It has more to do with the neurological response. Strength is a learned skill like any other sports skill. The denser the muslce is with myofibrills and the better your nervous system reponse, the stronger you will be, regardless of muscle size.

To get the most out of moving that weight, in terms of eliciting a reponse that creates the type of nervous system response, and growth of myofribril hypertrophy, the proper time under tension must be maintained. It varies from person to person but we know its somewhere in the 30 - 60 second range or say 4 - 8 reps.

Now, all this being said is 2 workset the only way to go. No, it was a suggestion based upon the information provided in the original post. It may not apply to this person's situation at all, but then again that's why he needs to be more specific.

On the other hand, blowing off what I say and telling him do 4-5 worksets has no beter validity than what I suggested because he did not communicate enough details to give a proper response.

Don't be a method sleeper. There are two many variables to say, "this is the final and only way it works". I know 4-5 worksets works, and I use it in may training during several micro-cycles, but it's not a pancacea, nor does it fit every situation.

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Re: Power and strength without mass
« Reply #1 on Dec 1, 2005, 8:20pm »

I have done only doubles and singles for the past 4 years with some respectable strength gains. My training partner has also seen sick gains with singles only. They are done in high volume in both sets and %...
This system does not work for all lifters of course. To make real gains with singles only one must have a very high intensity level.

Jeffrey Vaughn

http://www.geocities.com/vaughnpower/1.html

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 12:43 PM

Let's See examples -
Me Ed Coan Doug Furnas Kirk Karwoski Shane Hammond Dave Waddington Thousand of martial artists

Now, let's be clear. This is the type of training they used as advanced lifters. Generally 1-2 worksets in upper body work and 1 set for squats and deadlifts. These men lifted a lot of iron over the yars, and put in a lot of foundation work to get where they were.

### I think you have misinterpretted some of their routines and workouts logs. Yes they will have listed 1 or 2 "worksets," however, they are moving, even in training, incredible amounts of weight. If you go back and look more carefully, most of the time, while they have 1 or 2 worksets, they also have 3-5 other "warmup" sets using 80%+ of there max, or at least 70%+. Those percentages are quite capable of allowing for a strength response. Just because something is labeled warm up doesn't mean it doesn't have an imposed demand on the body.

A typical bench workout for Coan was

Bench Press 2 worksets Close Grip 2 worksets Incline 2 workset

Total of 6 worksets.

But two worksets per movement nonetheless.

### That's another thing (assistance movements), if you noticed above, I stated that 4-12 sets were optimal. That's per bodypart and/or lift trained. I.e., If I am training the bench, I am picking 1-4 movements for a total of 4-12 sets per workout.

The question was: How do I gain strength without gainin size.

### Improve relative strength within the parameters I have given. It's how strength athletes have been doing it for years.

Not - I'm a powerlifter and want to gain strength without gaining size, et al. Very general question, with no qualifications. So the basic answer is - Heavy weight, low volume, basic compund movements, keep caloric intake low.

Why is this correct? Well we know that the two most important factors are time under tension and the tension itself.

### Yeah, and total time under tension has an inverse relationship with tension. I.e., The greater the tension, the less time you are able to maintain under that tension. For any strength quality there is a minimum volume threshold.

The heavier the weight you move, the stronger you get. It's that simple.

### It is not otherwise going into the gym and performing a max effort everyday would be optimal training, this is clearly not the case. Hence there has been developed this phenomena called periodization.

Why, beause strength is not just a matter of muscle size. It has more to do with the neurological response. Strength is a learned skill like any other sports skill. The denser the muslce is with myofibrills and the better your nervous system reponse, the stronger you will be, regardless of muscle size.

### You're misunderstanding some physiology here, but since it doesn't really pertain to the discussion at hand.....

To get the most out of moving that weight, in terms of eliciting a reponse that creates the type of nervous system response, and growth of myofribril hypertrophy, the proper time under tension must be maintained. It varies from person to person but we know its somewhere in the 30 - 60 second range or say 4 - 8 reps.

### For relative strength improvements the TUT for a set should be 20 seconds or less.

Now, all this being said is 2 workset the only way to go. No, it was a suggestion based upon the information provided in the original post.

### And it doesn't work very well hence my disagreeement that it should be used at all. Given the parameters I set forth, there are endless set/rep variations that can be used much more effectively than a mere two sets.

It may not apply to this person's situation at all, but then again that's why he needs to be more specific.

### 2 Sets of 5 reps or less only appplies to a late pre-season or inseason athlete. There rest of the time it is ineffective training. If the athlete has time or recovery ability for only two sets then the minimum amount of reps that should be used is 6-8. Again, minimum volume threshold.

On the other hand, blowing off what I say and telling him do 4-5 worksets has no beter validity than what I suggested because he did not communicate enough details to give a proper response.

### He gave plenty of details. He wanted to increase strength and minimize weight gain. This is relative strength, the parameters I have given allow one to do this. Now it's not specific as far as sets, reps, and exercise, but there's not enough information for that. There's plenty of information to determine the type of strength quality the person wanted to improve. Being that's the case, the parameters I gave are more effective than alternative parameters for doing so. If you look at them, you will see they cover a wide range of types of workouts.

Don't be a method sleeper.

### I did not set forth a method. I set forth principles used to develop a method for improving a specific strength quality. Also, by definition, wouldn't a "method sleeper" use many different methods?

There are two many variables to say, "this is the final and only way it works".

### I agree, hence my parameters in which many diferent workouts can be designed, andmy disagreement with your recommendation of 2 sets.

I know 4-5 worksets works, and I use it in may training during several micro-cycles, but it's not a pancacea, nor does it fit every situation.

### No but for relative strength, few things will work outside the parameters I gave, i.e., 5 or fewer reps and 4-12 worksets. You can fudge one way or another every now and then, but the closer you stay to those guidelines, the better your relative strength improvements are going to be.

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max Müller
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 5:15 PM

Ok Leg training would look like this (goal relative strength): strength training sessions on 3 consecutive days: Dynamic stretch before each session, 1.Deadlift every session, 2-3 sets of 2-3 reps @ 85-95% 1RM, Plyometrics at the end of each set, within 1 minute of set completion 3-6 Deep jumps
2.One of the following at each session, 2-3 sets of 2-3 reps, Power Clean Box squats 5min rest

3. Isometric Ab work No Lifts To Failure!!

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max Müller
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 5:23 PM

What do you think of the programm? (it is a tweak of a special sprinting programm) The programm will be slightly changed some times to avoid accomdation! Ideas for upper body relative training? I thought about russian complex sets with rotating exercises(every 3weeks)!?
I disagree with the Time under tension thing, because the idea of TUT is wrong (it comes from HIT!!!).

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Nelson Nash
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 6:01 PM

I would do plyos in the beginning of my workout(I mean straight after thorough warmup)

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 6:05 PM

Ok Leg training would look like this (goal relative strength): strength training sessions on 3 consecutive days:
### I would advise against 3 consecutive days of relative strength work. It can make recovery difficult at times. Generall most people with do better with no more than 2 consecutive days of lifting.

Dynamic stretch before each session,

### Unless there is a specific purpose it's not very useful. If it's for general flexibility perform it in another session.

1.Deadlift every session, 2-3 sets of 2-3 reps @ 85-95% 1RM, Plyometrics at the end of each set, within 1 minute of set completion 3-6 Deep jumps

### Again, 2-3 sets will not be enough stimulation for optimal strength gains. Such a protocol is better for strength maintenance. Secondly, if you are to incorporate plyometrics as you seem to want to do, it is called complex training and the depth jumps should be done before the slow movement in order to prime the nervous system. Also, Full squats are a better choice than deadlift. If you get tired low back muscles during a landing, your asking for injury.

2.One of the following at each session, 2-3 sets of 2-3 reps, Power Clean Box squats 5min rest

### See above explanation on sets and reps.

3. Isometric Ab work No Lifts To Failure!!

### If this is supposed to be the "third day" workout, this would be ok, but I can't see an entire training session being devoted to isometric ab work, unless you were going to enter a "hit me in the stomach as hard as you can" contest.

What do you think of the programm? (it is a tweak of a special sprinting programm) The programm will be slightly changed some times to avoid accomdation! Ideas for upper body relative training?

### The parameters I set forth work for the entire body.

I thought about russian complex sets with rotating exercises(every 3weeks)!?

I disagree with the Time under tension thing, because the idea of TUT is wrong (it comes from HIT!!!).

### Incorrect. TUT is simply a quantifiable measure of the amount of time during a set and/or a rep in which the muscle is under tension. To assume that all reps are equal is a gross mistake. Furthermore, while Arthur Jones was one of the first to write extensively about TUT per se, that doesn't mean it is not useful. For one thing, not everything Jones espoused was all bad. He actually had good takes on a few things here and there, he just lost site of the bigger picture. Secondly, he wasn't the first to consider TUT for a set. Eastern European weightlifters had been doing this for years, especially with the younger lifters who typically use a greater amount of assistance movements. Often in order to add some functional hypertrophy they would perform slower tempo reps in order to increase TUT and therefore induce a greater hypertrophic response. If time under tensions is not to be considered, then reps are inconsequental. In essence that is the basic responsibility of performing reps in a specific range in order to maximize or minimize TUT as it relates to intensity. Empirical evidence of lifters around the world have demonstrated conclusively that reps of 5 or less allow for the greatest strength increases. Reps above 8 or 10 allow for the greatest increase in muscular endurance. This goes along perfectly with the observation that most sets of 5 reps or less will last 20 seconds or less. Most sets of 8 reps or more will last 40 seconds or more. Reps between 5-8 or 10 or between 20 and 40 seconds contribute to a combination of the above training adaptations. Therefore, if anyone can rationalize not paying attention to TUT, please explain it to me, as I'm wasting my time.

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Nizar
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Re: Power and strength without mass
« Reply #2 on Dec 1, 2005, 8:21pm »

Chris Doyle
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Saturday, November 26, 2005 7:32 PM

If I tried the volume you suggest Todd, it would completely wreck me. I think excessive TUT is unnecessary (it's dogma) . Strength is a skill and one practices that skill for a single. Plenty of people make great gains using singles and doubles .The bulgarians used primarily the OL for singles and doubles (it's in Science and practice of Strength Training by Zatsiorsky) and they did just fine. I am going with logic here. You are training your body to do one all out lift , not endurance anything above that single is endurance. So you practice holding tension for the duration of that single, excepting wanting to gain musclular mass anything else is overkill, which he doesn't want to do. IMO everyone would be better off training only singles (for weighhtlifting and powerlifting. Once he starts to peter out then he could gain muscle and lose fat concurrently.

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:05 PM

If I tried the volume you suggest Todd, it would completely wreck me.
### Wreck you? What volume? The volume within the parameters I suggest can range from incredibly low to only moderate.

I think excessive TUT is unnecessary (it's dogma) .

### WHo has suggested it?

Strength is a skill and one practices that skill for a single.

### Ok, go max with a single every workout, when you finally put 20 pounds on your bench you'll be 60.

Plenty of people make great gains using singles and doubles

### Can you read? Or do you just not understand the parameters of 4-12 sets of 5 or fewer reps? If you perform sets of less than 5 reps, that means you can use singles and doubles. I.e., ones and twos!

.The bulgarians used primarily the OL for singles and doubles (it's in Science and practice of Strength Training by Zatsiorsky) and they did just fine.

### And they used multiple sets and they adjusted the intensity of those singles and doubles. This has nothing to do with training for relative strength. They like virtually all strength athletes who develop considerable strength use multiple sets of low to moderate reps. I.e., not 2 sets. Furthermore, FYI, NO ONE that knows anything ever goes over 2 or 3 reps in the olympic lifts whether they are from Bulgaria, China, Cuba, the US, Khazikstan, or even Idaho.

I am going with logic here. You are training your body to do one all out lift , not endurance anything above that single is endurance.

### Since when has reps below 5 and a TUT of less than 20 seconds developed endurance? Nice logic.

So you practice holding tension for the duration of that single, excepting wanting to gain musclular mass anything else is overkill, which he doesn't want to do.

### What are you talking about???????????????????

IMO everyone would be better off training only singles (for weighhtlifting and powerlifting. Once he starts to peter out then he could gain muscle and lose fat concurrently.

### Yeah well you try that. There's a reason that no one does it like that. Keep reading in Science and Practice and you will learn that according to Zatsiorsky the average number of reps in the squat for elite athletes (several different sports) is 3-6. Furthermore, he goes on to assert that in Alexeev's preparation for the 1980 Olympics he didn't even perform a single in the good morning, one of his main assistance movements. After that little section, he will talk about the maximal effort method and assert that depending on the exercise, the maximal effort method can consist of rep in the 1-6 range and that athletes can expect little in the way of hypertrophy from that rep range. Seems Like I said that above!

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Nelson Nash
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Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:12 PM

I find the term"TUT" is waaaaay overused.Periodisation is the key.You can do powerlifting workout with less volume and high intensity and still put on considerable amount of muscle mass(If you jumped into it from bodybuiding routines).

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Chris Doyle
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Saturday, November 26, 2005 8:22 PM

Sorry I did misread you, the reps are flexible. Though seriously 3-5 sets of 5 at 80% 1RM would wreck a lot of people. Alexeev was a superheavyweight he could rely on using muscular gains to improve his strength. I mean one should mimick the conditions of an all-out max to promote absolute strength. Not necessarily by 1 rep max each week, u can alternate the intensity. If reps go above one this is not happening. Training singles has everything to do with relative strength, if you don't want to risk hypertrophy. I do not believe that muscular gains do not result from training up to six reps that is a a lot of time under tension, it's more to do with what you eat.

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:13 PM

Sorry I did misread you, the reps are flexible. Though seriously 3-5 sets of 5 at 80% 1RM would wreck a lot of people.
### First, according to most research most people can perform 5 reps with 84% - 86% of the 1RM. Second, what on earth are you talking about "wreck?" Most people will get bigger and stronger as som many do, using such a protocol.

Alexeev was a superheavyweight he could rely on using muscular gains to improve his strength.

### Did he? Maybe you need to take a look at what develops relative strength. To say that it is only, or not necessarily only, but optimally done using singles patently incorrect.

I mean one should mimick the conditions of an all-out max to promote absolute strength.

### How do you mimic it and not do it? I'm lost.

Not necessarily by 1 rep max each week, u can alternate the intensity. If reps go above one this is not happening.

### Bull. No one I have ever heard of performs single and adjusts the intensity and makes gains. Research and empirical evidence is more than clear that strength is best increased in the 1-5 rep range in the 80%+ range. That allows for quite several different reps that are not one. Where are you getting this information. It's not Zatsiorsky, go read the section on the maximal effort method.

Training singles has everything to do with relative strength, if you don't want to risk hypertrophy.

### It can be used, but there's two problems. 1) You cannot perform singles forever at an appropriate intensity to achieve a desired training response. Overtraining will occur. 2) You can't simply perform singles at a lower intensity as there will not be a minimal volume threshold with the lowered intensity in order to achieve a strength response. Using 80% for singles won't get you very far, and constantly using 90% and above will in fact "wreck" a person. If injury doesn't occur, overtraining surely will.

I do not believe that muscular gains do not result from training up to six reps

### Well, you don't have to, but I've never met anyone else who has asserted such a thing. No exercise scientist or elite coach ever has I can assure you.

that is a a lot of time under tension, it's more to do with what you eat.

### Not really. Assuming you took as much as 4 seconds per rep, a 6 rep set would last all of 24 seconds. By my guidelines, you would only perform reps of 5 or less. Let's assume you perform the reps in 3 seconds. 15 seconds of TUT. Plenty of max effort doubles and triples last 8-16 seconds, because of the simple fact that it takes longer to move heavier weight.

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Nelson Nash
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:26 PM

"Plenty of max effort doubles and triples last 8-16 seconds, because of the simple fact that it takes longer to move heavier weight."
### Only if you are doing Negatives or have forgotten the word "SPEED".

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 9:42 PM

Not if your using maximal weight. Even when using CAT, it simply takes longer to perform max effort lifts. Hence the literature is clear that slow lifts improve strength better because of the intensity that correlate swith everything I have talked about.
You guys need to read up. A great place to start is Zatsiorsky's book.

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phil elliott
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Saturday, November 26, 2005 11:20 PM

Don't deadlift if you don't want to get mass...

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Chris Doyle
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Sunday, November 27, 2005 5:30 AM

Thanks Todd, I know I am a pain and the claims that I make are assertions. So could I perform a heavy activity like a car push or wheelbarrow work for 24secs or so and expect good strength gains? Everytime I attempt a 5 x 5 I feel like someone has beaten on me (I am very sore for several days) I have used 2 x5 or sometimes 3 by 5 to good effect.

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max Müller
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Sunday, November 27, 2005 7:18 AM

Tood I think you did not understand my training plan! It is only one Workout done on 3 consecutive Days! Deadlift, Deep Jumps, POwerclean/ Speed Boxsquat , Ab work Every Day!
So Volume per Week is 9 sets Deadlift 85%-95% 1 RM!

In Complex training you do alter Max Effort and dynamic Effort, but You start with Max Effort!

But I thank you for Your training Tipps!

TUT: Time under Tension is useless! An simple Example: The TUT principe says that you would have the best Mass Gains with TUT . 30-70 sekonds ( Charles Poliquin)

If this would be the truth, why can you gain huge amounts of Mass with Cluster Training?! (Did you ever heard about the German CLUSTER HST?). Clustering is similar to Rest pause training. You subdivide a set into small units. (Exaple Bench press -> You want to do 10 reps in this workout. But you use your 5rm as Working Weigth. So you do 2reps short rest 2eps short rest 2reps short rest 2reps short rest 2reps) The TUT of the REPS is 8 sekonds (2 up 2down). If the TUT theorie was rigth the Bencher would not Gain any Mass! The truth is he wil gain a lot of Mass with Clustering (and Progressiv Load)!

Your Mucles react to Mechanical Load and not to TUT!

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Chris Doyle
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Sunday, November 27, 2005 9:16 AM

Yep why not just tense your muscles hard instead of lifting weights.

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Sunday, November 27, 2005 11:21 AM

Thanks Todd, I know I am a pain and the claims that I make are assertions.
### May you need to look up the definition of "assertion." Nothing wrong with making one, I have in this exchange. However, some of yours have been incorrect.

So could I perform a heavy activity like a car push or wheelbarrow work for 24secs or so and expect good strength gains?

### YES!

Everytime I attempt a 5 x 5 I feel like someone has beaten on me (I am very sore for several days) I have used 2 x5 or sometimes 3 by 5 to good effect.

### Sounds like your not in very good shape then. You probably need a longer GP phase.

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Sunday, November 27, 2005 11:35 AM

Tood I think you did not understand my training plan! It is only one Workout done on 3 consecutive Days! Deadlift, Deep Jumps, POwerclean/ Speed Boxsquat , Ab work Every Day!
### Well, even that being the case, it's not very effective.

So Volume per Week is 9 sets Deadlift 85%-95% 1 RM!

In Complex training you do alter Max Effort and dynamic Effort, but You start with Max Effort!

### Not for the best results.

But I thank you for Your training Tipps!

TUT: Time under Tension is useless!

### See my explanation above, if you can use reason and logic to make this claim go for it. I'll listen, but stating something like this with little in the way of backing it up is quite rediculous.

An simple Example: The TUT principe says that you would have the best Mass Gains with TUT . 30-70 sekonds ( Charles Poliquin)

### And generally speaking this is correct for most people most of the time. The empirical evidence is overwhelming.

If this would be the truth, why can you gain huge amounts of Mass with Cluster Training?!

### Because it's effective! READ! No one, CHarles included has said, that mass is ONLY gained in that TUT range. However, mass is definitely not gained best in the less than 20 second range. It is clear that it is better for relative strength. Yes you can and do gain mass at times, especially depending on what you were doing before that on the previous microcycle. But your assertion does nothing to detract from the fact that mass is in fact best gained in the 30-70 second range, You may not like that, but you can no more change the fact than you can alter the moons orbit.

(Did you ever heard about the German CLUSTER HST?). Clustering is similar to Rest pause training. You subdivide a set into small units. (Exaple Bench press -> You want to do 10 reps in this workout. But you use your 5rm as Working Weigth. So you do 2reps short rest 2eps short rest 2reps short rest 2reps short rest 2reps) The TUT of the REPS is 8 sekonds (2 up 2down). If the TUT theorie was rigth the Bencher would not Gain any Mass! The truth is he wil gain a lot of Mass with Clustering (and Progressiv Load)!

### If TUT theory was right? WHo ever said TUT theory says "Mass cannot be gained with TUT of less than 20 seconds?" You have manufactured some nonsense in your head. NO one has ever made such a claim. We're talking about good better best. You can gain quality mass with TUT below 20, but not nearly as efectively as you can with TUT of 30-70 seconds. Here's something else to blow your noodle. YOu can gain mass, with TUT over 70 seconds, but it's not as effective as TUT between 30 and 70 seconds either. Stop looking at this thing trying to find some perfect, ideal method. It's a set of principles. They're not written on the back of the Ten COmmandments. They are guidelines. WOW.

Your Mucles react to Mechanical Load and not to TUT!

### If that mechanical load does not provide tension for a degree of time (i.e., TUT) your muscles will not respond, go re-read my explanation above, you clearly didn't the first time.

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Sunday, November 27, 2005 11:39 AM

Yep why not just tense your muscles hard instead of lifting weights.
### Chris, you quoted Zatsiorsky......go finish reading the book. YOu don't think anyone has ever thought of this? There are minimum threshold intensities and volumes for the development of every strength quality. I explained fairly accurately the reasoning behind paying attention to TUT, can you offer a critique to my reasoning? You defintely have not offered a plausible alternative to quantifying the amount of time a muscle stays under load and it's effect on the the adaptive and regenerative abilities of the athlete.

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Sunday, November 27, 2005 9:32 PM

Looks like I'm not the only crazy one........quote from Doc:
"THAT is why I did 8s! That's not high reps! It's strength building."

OMG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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Joseph Paulmer
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Sunday, November 27, 2005 10:15 PM

todd, just curiouse, i do 3 full body work outs a week (mon, wen, fri) i've been making good gains, but i only do 2 set for each body part each work out.
exmpl. mon i do squat (2sets), whendsday i do stiffleg dead(2sets), and friday i do full cleans(2sets), so my legs get hit with 6 sets a week but only 2 a day. do 5 reps for all.

now i remeber reading an article in pure power mag that 4 sets a week per body part was optimal.

my Q is does this go along w/ what your saying?

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Sunday, November 27, 2005 10:46 PM

Yes, as you increase frequency you can get get away with less volume per workout. I would say that another 2-3 set may bring about better results depending on what else or how much else your doing.
I would disagree that four sets per week is optimal. At certain times it may be, at other times it definitely wouldn't.

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Joseph Paulmer
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Monday, November 28, 2005 9:29 AM

the thing i'm getting at is (and i'm sure you already sead this MANY TIMES) its number of sets per muscle worked PER WEEK not session, right?
i remeber i bought one of Pavel Tsatsouline's books and he advocates a two set system for "wirey strength" (relative strength) however, he also advocates several full body work outs a week, so the volume is high but the volume per work out is low.

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Monday, November 28, 2005 9:51 AM

the thing i'm getting at is (and i'm sure you already sead this MANY TIMES) its number of sets per muscle worked PER WEEK not session, right?
### Well, yes and no. Even with X volume per week, you will still need a minimum volume per workout depending on frequency or you won't reach that targetted weekly volume. Also, I would argue that it would be not the number of sets per se, but the number of repetitions, given the intensity is optimal for the desired training effect.

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Joseph Paulmer
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Monday, November 28, 2005 10:52 AM

"I would argue that it would be not the number of sets per se, but the number of repetitions, given the intensity is optimal for the desired training effect. "
see now your confusing me. stop me when i'm wrong, 3-5(6) rep range for absolute strength, 6+ for hypotrophy/endurance...

i do 2sets of 5 reps per body part each work out adding up to 6sets and 30 total reps a week for each body part. this seems to be working verry well as i have been using it for the last 4 months and i have gotten stronger w/o out gaining wany weight (infact i lost a lot of weight)

course i should add i'm still not as strong as i was last year b/c i took most of this summer off from lifting to work (roofing). but slowly and surly i'm getting back to where i was last year at 15 lbs. less body weight.

i'm always looking for the best way to do things, so i like reading your advice todd.

this routine i'm on is getting pritty tough now though so i'm thinking of going 5reps then 4reps (following week) then 3 reps before starting over at 5reps 5lbs lighter then i was at 3 reps, (wave pyrimidization?)

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Monday, November 28, 2005 11:39 AM

see now your confusing me. stop me when i'm wrong, 3-5(6) rep range for absolute strength, 6+ for hypotrophy/endurance...

### Eehhhhh.......how about this:

1-5 reps for maximal strength.

6-8 reps for a good/equal mix of strength and hypertrophy

8-12 reps for maximal hypertrophy

12+ reps for muscular endurance

i do 2sets of 5 reps per body part each work out adding up to 6sets and 30 total reps a week for each body part. this seems to be working verry well as i have been using it for the last 4 months and i have gotten stronger w/o out gaining wany weight (infact i lost a lot of weight)

### After 4 months, I would suggest changing some things. You can still do 3 total body session, but mix up exercises, set/rep ranges, rest intervals, etc.

this routine i'm on is getting pritty tough now though so i'm thinking of going 5reps then 4reps (following week) then 3 reps before starting over at 5reps 5lbs lighter then i was at 3 reps, (wave pyrimidization?)

### I think that would be the way to go. You would be able to more easily see incremental improvement from workout to workout.

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TC Smith
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Monday, November 28, 2005 11:52 AM

"If you get tired low back muscles during a landing, your asking for injury."
Please explain what this is..."landing".

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Todd Wilson
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Monday, November 28, 2005 1:04 PM

During depth jumps.........you land..........

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TC Smith
User How to gain power and strength without mass gain?
Monday, November 28, 2005 1:21 PM

OK. For some reason I thought something like the Deadlift was being referred to.