Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield

Cory Ackerman
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Friday, August 5, 2005 1:52 PM

### Plyos are ALWAYS done first, otherwise your just jumping.
Todd, I didn't read the basketball program on the post below where you made the aforementioned statement as I have no interest whatsoever in basketball (and you're probably right about the program not being very good as I saw there were leg extensions involved in it/not a very good functional movenment), but in my opinion plyometrics/ dynamic effort or whatever you want to call it would be beneficial either before OR after limit strength training protocols. I'm on my way out the door to work, but I am curious as to what your reasoning is for this.

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Chris Doyle
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Friday, August 5, 2005 2:43 PM

Wouldn't you be tired after limit strength training? But what is wrong with 50-601RM then plyos straight afterwards (a la complex training). I got results from this type of training. I have not tried simply plyometrics alone.

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graham Cole
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Friday, August 5, 2005 2:53 PM

From my understanding, if you want the best results from doing plyo's, you must do them 1st before anything else. This is because your CNS is ready for training and not already drained from any other exercise (Plyo's do nothing but stimulate the cns). To get the most out of plyo's you have to train when you can put the most effort into them.

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Todd Wilson
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Friday, August 5, 2005 3:27 PM

You ALWAYS perform the exercises that require the most skill and neural drive first in the workout. That is why olympic lifters never perform squats before clean and jerks and snatches. This is why assistance lifts are performed after the main lifts. Plyometrics requires lots of neural drive to perform. For example, if you are performing rebound jumps of of a high box, when you land your body is absorbing 6-10 times your body weight. You can't squat that. If you could, would you want to do it in a fatigued state? Perfominf plyometrics in a fatigued state leads to injury. When your body absorbs this force it is known as the amortisation phase. The longer this phase last....in other words, the longer you stay on the ground before your body can absorb this energy and then use it to explode back up......the less of a speed/power training adaptation will be possible. The time spent going from absorbing energy to releasing it by jumping again is known as coupling time........this is improtant because a coupling time of greater than 0.15 seconds between eccentric and concentric contractions is greater than what the classical definition of plyometrics. Now that should be qualified as Siff has noted in that benefits of the stretch reflex can still be seen in say the bench press models used in Greg Wilson's research. However, in true plyometric training this figure is still accurate. With fatigue one will gravitate from plyometric training into jump training as Siff has noted. Also it should be clear that while a dog and a cat are both animals, a cat is certainly not a dog. Similarly, while plyometric work is dynamic work, not all dynamic work is plyometric.

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Chris Doyle
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Friday, August 5, 2005 4:01 PM

So a 50-60% squat say 4-6 reps say followed by a few burpees would be OK. But ideal is plyometrics alone. What about complex training philosophy of activating more FT fibres by the dynamic effort work first.

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Todd Wilson
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Friday, August 5, 2005 5:34 PM

So a 50-60% squat say 4-6 reps
### Why 4-6 reps when most people could perform 10-15 more at that percentage?

say followed by a few burpees would be OK.

### IMO burpees are only useful after a six pack of beer.

But ideal is plyometrics alone.

### Correct.

What about complex training philosophy of activating more FT fibres by the dynamic effort work first.

### COmplex training is an option at times, but the athlete must be qualified. The average guy who has trained a few years and simply wan't to jump higher usually has other things that he should concentrate on. But when used correctly, it's very effective.

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Chris Doyle
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Friday, August 5, 2005 6:10 PM

Sorry to keep on , but what do you think qualifies one for complex training , perhaps a 1.5 -2 X bw SQUAT or is not just down to strength level
cheers Chris

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Todd Wilson
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Friday, August 5, 2005 6:57 PM

This has been debated endlessly......and frankly I don't think you can assign a specific strength. Example:
I've seen basketball players who in various box jumping drills who could not squat their body weight significantly outperform another person who could 2 times bodyweight squat. They couldn't squat crap, but they had it where is counts so to speak. However, it is also clear that further plyometric training would not do them much good. They needed to improve their squat. And the guy that could squat well needs to perhaps perform more plyos. This is where IMO, the art comes into strength coaching, where you have been around enough athletes you just know that one needs plyos, one needs better strength, one needs power cleans, etc.

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Jeffrey Vaughn
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Friday, August 5, 2005 9:22 PM

Hey Todd, do you agree with the use of a weight vest with plyometrics even if it creates a longer coupling time. When I did them we always used a vest but the coupling time was significantly increased. Is it fair to say that a vest is not required unless you can stay with in a specified coupling time range. It sounds like you know allot about plyos and I would appreciate your opinion.
Thanks,

Jeffrey Vaughn

http://www.geocities.com/vaughnpower/1.html

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Todd Wilson
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Saturday, August 6, 2005 1:44 PM

I don't like vest at all. Using vest with plyos is a g reat example of people over analyzing stuff and trying to fix what isn't broke. The thing with plyos is, for the best training effect you want to decrease the coupling time. Plyos are speed training in the purest form. Therefore, slowing it down with vest, bands, etc. decreases the effectiveness. The only weighted, or externally resisted plyos I have ever bought into is jump squats with 1/6 your body weight. Unlike weight training you don't measure improvement via weight used, height jumped from, amount of jumps, etc. It's how much time did you spend on the ground? How high did you jump after hitting the ground. Mel Siff, myself, and others had quite an extensive conversation a few years ago on the Supertraining group and while, I've always had a pretty good understanding of what they are and what they aren't but that discussion really opened my eyes to the difference between plyos and simple jump training. Now, as Siff has stated jump training can possibly be beneficial, but it won't duplicate the training effect of plyometrics. Of course Siff got virtually all of his information Verkoshansky who more or less invented and formalized the methodology. No one had heard of it before Valery Borsov.

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Cory Ackerman
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Saturday, August 6, 2005 2:19 PM

### What about complex training philosophy of activating more FT fibres by the dynamic effort work first. In a complex you alternate, doing dynamic, then limit, dynamic, then limit. Personally I think there is something to it, allthough according to what Louie said about it he claims the effectiveness of the complex was a result of its application to intermediate lifters that would still get results even with a less than optimal protocol. ### You ALWAYS perform the exercises that require the most skill and neural drive first in the workout. That is why olympic lifters never perform squats before clean and jerks and snatches. This is why assistance lifts are performed after the main lifts. ### This has been debated endlessly......and frankly I don't think you can assign a specific strength. Example: I've seen basketball players who in various box jumping drills who could not squat their body weight significantly outperform another person who could 2 times bodyweight squat. They couldn't squat crap, but they had it where is counts so to speak. However, it is also clear that further plyometric training would not do them much good. They needed to improve their squat. And the guy that could squat well needs to perhaps perform more plyos.
Right on. This is where I have a tendency to fall off in thinking it may be slightly better to do them afterwards though, as I would think for a powerlifter limit strength would take a slight precedence over speed. Doc, if you read this please don't run me over on the side of the road, but when you say SPEED IS KING, wouldn't it be more accurate to say SPEED IS QUEEN? Example: If you took lifter X and lifter Y, who both bench 365, and said that lifter X could only train for SPEED quality utilizing either bodyweight plyos like clap pushups, speed benching with submaximal weights in the 30% to 60% 1RM range (say perhaps as high as 70% if we were talking about lower body), and lifter Y could only do 70% or above limit strength training, I think it would be safe to say that lifter Y would get there much faster, IF lifter X was ever even able to get there. Given this, I think in the specific case of a powerlifter, limit strength training would take precedence over training for speed qualities. I would think it would be best to train the quality that takes higher precedence first

The training for speed I would see as a means to an end of greater limit strength, not an end unto itself. Speed or power qualities are different than limit strength qualities and not necessarily directly correlated. As you stated earlier, plyos and dynamic work are both animals, albeit different ones, I think the same could be said for speed qualities vs. limit strength qualities. For example, given that 77% 1RM would be the median ideal for watts of power/ force production produced for the vast majority powerlifters, we know that this is a very effective range to train in, typically a percentile adhered to on a 5x5 routine, and yet training at 85-95% or even doing overloads at 120% is also very effective, but even if you are using CAT, the weight isn't moving very fast at 95%. If speed were the end all be all in powerlifting, the olympic lifters would own all of the deadlift records, as watts of power are much higher on a powerclean than speed deadlifts even on percentages as low as 30-40%.

### Plyometrics requires lots of neural drive to perform. The longer this phase last....in other words, the longer you stay on the ground before your body can absorb this energy and then use it to explode back up......the less of a speed/power training adaptation will be possible. The time spent going from absorbing energy to releasing it by jumping again is known as coupling time........this is improtant because a coupling time of greater than 0.15 seconds between eccentric and concentric contractions is greater than what the classical definition of plyometrics. A dog and a cat are both animals, a cat is certainly not a dog. Similarly, while plyometric work is dynamic work, not all dynamic work is plyometric. Yes plyos or speed training do a good job of activating motor units in the white fibers, which is why I agree that doing a limited amount before limit strength training would be a good idea if you're going heavy to increase the force production capacity for the limit strength training, however, take for instance the manner in which Ben Johnson prepared himself for world record sprint times. If speed is the definition of a king, then this is the guy who wears the crown, and in the article posted by Mary Douglas on squats it stated that Charlie Francis had him do a 5RM squat just minutes prior to his sprinting. Why could this philosophy not be applied to everyone? IE, if coupling time is essential for a plyo such as depth jumps or vertical jumps, I would be willing to bet 100 dollars that if I were to go to the gym, do a good warm up and then do three vertical jumps and take the best of those three, wait ten minutes, then go to the squat rack and work up to a 5RM or even a 1 or 2RM, wait 5 or 10 minutes, and then retest my vertical jump three times that not only would I have a better singular height, but a higher average on all three of the attempts as well. Or let's say in the case of someone doing speed benching. A common tactic I've seen powerlifters use and that I use myself is a dropset- going to a heavy or even an absolute single, waiting a few minutes and then stripping the down to a 60-75% 1RM weight while the white fiber motor units are operating at a high threshhold, and then repping out using CAT. More often than not you will get more reps with that 60-75% weight after the single than if you were to work up to it. BTW, I put those rope pulls to the neck in my trap routine for 4 of my next 6 workouts, and they work really well:)

.

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Todd Wilson
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Saturday, August 6, 2005 2:58 PM

Right on. This is where I have a tendency to fall off in thinking it may be slightly better to do them afterwards though,
### There is no benefit and only a possibility of injury doing them after lifting weights!

as I would think for a powerlifter limit strength would take a slight precedence over speed.

### It is, but that has nothing to do with what you train first in a workout! Let the PLer train limit strength, but if he needs to improve his speed and plyos fit the bill, he needs a seperate workout for them. Performing them after lifting weights is like drinking a diet coke at a pizza buffet.

Doc, if you read this please don't run me over on the side of the road, but when you say SPEED IS KING, wouldn't it be more accurate to say SPEED IS QUEEN? Example: If you took lifter X and lifter Y, who both bench 365, and said that lifter X could only train for SPEED quality utilizing either bodyweight plyos like clap pushups, speed benching with submaximal weights in the 30% to 60% 1RM range (say perhaps as high as 70% if we were talking about lower body), and lifter Y could only do 70% or above limit strength training, I think it would be safe to say that lifter Y would get there much faster,

Yeah and if Dwight Phillips and Asafa Powell ran the 100 today and Dwight had to run backwards Asaf would win as well. WHat's your point? Strength is the foundation of all strength qualities, speed, power, endurance, all of them!

IF lifter X was ever even able to get there. Given this, I think in the specific case of a powerlifter, limit strength training would take precedence over training for speed qualities.

### Ah! Not always..... for elite athletes there comes a point where to inrease strength one must increase speed and vice versa.

I would think it would be best to train the quality that takes higher precedence first

### You might need to make it a priority in training, but there are other factors that govern what should be performed first in a workout. Performing limit strength stuff first and plyos after is a classic example of poor program design. See my above post on it, you cannot logicall put plyos behind anything in a workout! If you perform plyos and then strength stuff (why they can't have their own seperate workouts I cannot fathom) you still get the benefit of both. But you get NO benefit from the plyos after strength stuff.

The training for speed I would see as a means to an end of greater limit strength, not an end unto itself. Speed or power qualities are different than limit strength qualities and not necessarily directly correlated.

### They are diretly related. Strength dictates ALL other strength qualities.

As you stated earlier, plyos and dynamic work are both animals, albeit different ones, I think the same could be said for speed qualities vs. limit strength qualities.

### How many different speed and limit strength qualities are there? Speed is speed. Limit strength is limit strength, they are types of strength qualities just as power maximal strength, relative strength, strength edurance, etc. all are.

For example, given that 77% 1RM would be the median ideal for watts of power/ force production produced for the vast majority powerlifters, we know that this is a very effective range to train in,

### Says who? For how long. If all powerlifters train at that percentage (given it's a ball park figure) all the time there would be a bunch of weak powerlifters. Even if that was the "ideal for power" production. The percentage at which peak power is produced is not necessarily the ideal percentage to train at to improve power production.

typically a percentile adhered to on a 5x5 routine, and yet training at 85-95% or even doing overloads at 120% is also very effective, but even if you are using CAT, the weight isn't moving very fast at 95%.

### And? Speed of the weight matters far less than the intent. Research by Behm corroborates this.

If speed were the end all be all in powerlifting, the olympic lifters would own all of the deadlift records, as watts of power are much higher on a powerclean than speed deadlifts even on percentages as low as 30-40%.

### That's apples and oranges again. Even when a olympic lifter is performing a record attempt, getting the weight off the floor is never the problem, they're trying to get it over their head. It's a slow lift until they get just below the knee.

Yes plyos or speed training do a good job of activating motor units in the white fibers, which is why I agree that doing a limited amount before limit strength training would be a good idea if you're going heavy to increase the force production capacity for the limit strength training, however, take for instance the manner in which Ben Johnson prepared himself for world record sprint times. If speed is the definition of a king, then this is the guy who wears the crown, and in the article posted by Mary Douglas on squats it stated that Charlie Francis had him do a 5RM squat just minutes prior to his sprinting.

### Charlie Francis never stated such a thing. In fact he has categorically denied it numerous times. At least once to me personally. Now, the logic behind that is not terrible, but a max squat attempt and an entire workout before a sprint or plyo session are two entirely different things. Not even apple and oranges, more like apples and bread.

Why could this philosophy not be applied to everyone? IE, if coupling time is essential for a plyo such as depth jumps or vertical jumps, I would be willing to bet 100 dollars that if I were to go to the gym, do a good warm up and then do three vertical jumps and take the best of those three, wait ten minutes, then go to the squat rack and work up to a 5RM or even a 1 or 2RM, wait 5 or 10 minutes, and then retest my vertical jump three times that not only would I have a better singular height, but a higher average on all three of the attempts as well.

### And? What's your point, that is well and fine. But that in no way makes it logical to perform a strength workout and then a plyometric workout!

Or let's say in the case of someone doing speed benching. A common tactic I've seen powerlifters use and that I use myself is a dropset- going to a heavy or even an absolute single, waiting a few minutes and then stripping the down to a 60-75% 1RM weight while the white fiber motor units are operating at a high threshhold, and then repping out using CAT. More often than not you will get more reps with that 60-75% weight after the single than if you were to work up to it.

### Yeah, it's an example of post tetanic facillitation. But again, Performing an entire workout prior to a plyo session only leads to poor results and injury, don't believe me, try it and try to track you results.

BTW, I put those rope pulls to the neck in my trap routine for 4 of my next 6 workouts, and they work really well:)

### It's a great variation of the row.

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Cory Ackerman
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Saturday, August 6, 2005 3:44 PM

### Charlie Francis never stated such a thing. In fact he has categorically denied it numerous times. At least once to me personally. Now, the logic behind that is not terrible, but a max squat attempt and an entire workout before a sprint or plyo session are two entirely different things. Not even apple and oranges, more like apples and bread.
Okay, assuming the article is nothing but heresay and conjecture, you are still not clarifying why plyos after limit strength training would be like having a diet coke at a pizza buffet. Why not take advantage of post tetanic facillitation, thus improving the coupling time on plyos and improving the benefit? Obviously, common sense would dictate that if you were to do it that way that you would do less work on the limit strength and the plyos than if you were to do them separately, but if you can get a post tetanic response from the heavy weights and derive benefit on force production and coupling times for plyos, why would you NOT want to do it, ESPECIALLY if you are at an elite level and you know that you specifically need to make improvements on your speed??? Complexes of all sorts, whether it be supersetting antagonistic muscle groups like chest and back, changing width of grip from one set to the next, etc. help elite athletes that have been stuck in a rut to break through training plateuas all the time.

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Todd Wilson
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Saturday, August 6, 2005 6:44 PM

Okay, assuming the article is nothing but heresay and conjecture,
### Well, I have not looked at it, but I'm just telling you what Charlie has said.

you are still not clarifying why plyos after limit strength training would be like having a diet coke at a pizza buffet.

### Read my previous post, I have explained it thouroughly. It's a phenomenon called fatigued!

Why not take advantage of post tetanic facillitation,

### You don't get the effect after a strength session or we would lift heavier 45 minutes after starting as opposed to lifting less. One maximal effort lift and 5 sets has different effects.

thus improving the coupling time on plyos and improving the benefit?

### Go perform 5 sets of 5 with the squats and see how coupling time is improved. It's not! Fatigue prevents it!

Obviously, common sense would dictate that if you were to do it that way that you would do less work on the limit strength and the plyos than if you were to do them separately, but if you can get a post tetanic response from the heavy weights

### You're misunderstanding what post tetanic facillitation is. For example. If I perform a max single, rest, then perform a 6 RM. Then I perform another max because of the facillitation I will be able to use more on the set of six. However, after I perform 6 sets, I'm fatigued there is no longer any tetanic facillitation going on. Therefore, not only would it not help lessen coupling time the fatigue would increase it, and increase likely hood od injury. How many times do I have to say that?

and derive benefit on force production and coupling times for plyos, why would you NOT want to do it,

### Because it's ineffective, it doesn't happen.

ESPECIALLY if you are at an elite level and you know that you specifically need to make improvements on your speed???

### Elite athletes that have been properly trained with plyometric, e.g., Valery Borsov (trained by Verkoshansky) never trained strength prior to plyometrics because it is ineffective at improving speed and power, and they understood the physiological and neurological demands of plyometric training. Plyometrics is one of the most physically demanding methods of training there is.

Complexes of all sorts,

### COmplexes are different than training strength then moving to plyos don't cloud the discussion.

whether it be supersetting antagonistic muscle groups like chest and back, changing width of grip from one set to the next, etc.

### What on earth do these examples have to do with the reasoning of using plyos after a strength workout?

help elite athletes that have been stuck in a rut to break through training plateuas all the time.

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Jeffrey Vaughn
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Saturday, August 6, 2005 7:04 PM

Guys, sometimes there are not absolute answers to all questions. You are both very knowlageable but there comes a time to agree to disagree. This is called an opinion.
It has been interesting to read the information from both of you. Thanks for the information.

Jeffrey Vaughn

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Chris Doyle
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Saturday, August 6, 2005 7:33 PM

It's v interesting . Cory what is the rationale behind the complex - absolute strength then speed - pre-activating different muscle fibres at different percentages ?!

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Cory Ackerman
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Sunday, August 7, 2005 12:48 PM

###Guys, sometimes there are not absolute answers to all questions. You are both very knowlageable but there comes a time to agree to disagree. This is called an opinion.
Hey, it's cool, I respect Todd's opinion. He is very knowledgeable and I've learned a lot from reading his posts on the board, I just happen to disagree with him on this.

###It's v interesting . Cory what is the rationale behind the complex - absolute strength then speed - pre-activating different muscle fibres at different percentages ?!

Speed and limit strength are just two different qualities of strength. Increasing speed will not necessarily increase your limit strength, but increasing limit strength will enhance your speed. The theory of complex training is that in training both of the qualities in an alternating fashion in the same session vs. two different sessions is that they would synergistically enhance one another. Some schools of thought believe it best to keep the two separate, whereas other schools of thought believe it best to combine the two. There are models of success employing both methods.

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Todd Wilson
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Sunday, August 7, 2005 3:15 PM

Hey, it's cool, I respect Todd's opinion. He is very knowledgeable and I've learned a lot from reading his posts on the board, I just happen to disagree with him on this.
### Well, why? I explained that your assumption of a post tetanic response after a strength workout will have no positive carry over to a plyo workout, therefore what is the rationale?

Speed and limit strength are just two different qualities of strength. Increasing speed will not necessarily increase your limit strength, but increasing limit strength will enhance your speed. The theory of complex training is that in training both of the qualities in an alternating fashion in the same session vs. two different sessions is that they would synergistically enhance one another. Some schools of thought believe it best to keep the two separate, whereas other schools of thought believe it best to combine the two. There are models of success employing both methods.

### Had you read my previous post carefully, I acknowledged that comples training can be beneficial. However, you did not start off talking about methods of complex training, but performing plyometrics after a strength workout which is an ineffective and potentially dangerous method to use. No world class athletes or coaches use the method because of the reasons I have listed.

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Cory Ackerman
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Sunday, August 7, 2005 5:14 PM

### Well, why? I explained that your assumption of a post tetanic response after a strength workout will have no positive carry over to a plyo workout, therefore what is the rationale?
Allthough plyos are different from weighted speed work in the 30-70% 1RM range (ie, depth jumps and the bodies absorbing 6 times bodyweight, etc), plyos are still a form of dynamic work, therefore I would assert I would derive benefit in a complex of plyos w/ limit strength training in the same manner I would with speed work. I would think the body would have the capacity to do both in one session so long as the volume was kept at a reasonable level. For instance, I average 12-14 sets on chest once weekly utilizing limit strength, however, if I felt I really needed to focus on speed I might include ten sets of clap pushups after the limit strength training with my palms at varying positions of close, medium, wide- but I would probably just do 5-7 sets on bench vs. 14 sets w/ 3 different exercises beforehand in the 80-95% 1RM range. If I only wanted to focus a little on speed, I might do 8-10 sets of one or two different limit strength movements followed by 6 sets of clap pushups all done with my palms out wide.

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Todd Wilson
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Sunday, August 7, 2005 5:37 PM

Allthough plyos are different from weighted speed work in the 30-70% 1RM range (ie, depth jumps and the bodies absorbing 6 times bodyweight, etc), plyos are still a form of dynamic work, therefore I would assert I would derive benefit in a complex of plyos w/ limit strength training in the same manner I would with speed work.
### When this discussion started you were not talking about using them in complexes! I stated in one of my earlier post and several since that complex training is very useful! You asserted that it was beneficial to perform plyo work after strength work. SO what are you arguing for or against?

I would think the body would have the capacity to do both in one session so long as the volume was kept at a reasonable level.

### If you are talking about adapting to a complex of strength and plyo work, sure it can. If you are talking about an adaptation to plyo work performed after speed work, my question would be what would this adaptation be? I predict lowered rate of force development.

For instance, I average 12-14 sets on chest once weekly utilizing limit strength, however, if I felt I really needed to focus on speed I might include ten sets of clap pushups after the limit strength training with my palms at varying positions of close, medium, wide- but I would probably just do 5-7 sets on bench vs. 14 sets w/ 3 different exercises beforehand in the 80-95% 1RM range.

### How has this worked? Can you perform more clap push up in less time? Are you getting higher off the ground on your clap push ups? How is it benefiting speed and speed strength?

If I only wanted to focus a little on speed, I might do 8-10 sets of one or two different limit strength movements followed by 6 sets of clap pushups all done with my palms out wide.

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Jeffrey Vaughn
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Sunday, August 7, 2005 5:37 PM

Do you want me to make some calls and set up a cage match to settle this?
Jeffrey Vaughn

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Cory Ackerman
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Sunday, August 7, 2005 7:21 PM

### When this discussion started you were not talking about using them in complexes! I stated in one of my earlier post and several since that complex training is very useful! You asserted that it was beneficial to perform plyo work after strength work. SO what are you arguing for or against?
Perhaps I should clarify- I am saying I think they would work as a complex OR after strength training.

### If you are talking about adapting to a complex of strength and plyo work, sure it can. If you are talking about an adaptation to plyo work performed after speed work, my question would be what would this adaptation be? I predict lowered rate of force development.

I never said I thought it would be good to do plyos w/ speed work. I wouldn't see the point as they are both dynamic efforts and that would be too much focus on that strength quality for a powerlifter.

### How has this worked? Can you perform more clap push up in less time? Are you getting higher off the ground on your clap push ups? How is it benefiting speed and speed strength?

I say this in theory as I haven't incorporated plyos into my routine. At the level I'm at now I'm getting enough speed work using CAT on my 65% weights for hypertrophy with the advantage being that the movement is more sport specific. I would only incorporate plyos as a means of breaking a plateau if I felt I was getting stale on the sports specific movements.

### Do you want me to make some calls and set up a cage match to settle this?

I think it would be funny if George Bush had taken up on Sadaam's request for an octagon match. Todd and I could could be the undercard and you could be the referee. Seriously though, why would I want to fight someone who challenges my thinking processes? Defending my beliefs will either make them more refined, or if I do feel I am legitimately proven wrong, I will reform my belief with the result being a better training method than before.

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Todd Wilson
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Sunday, August 7, 2005 7:49 PM

Perhaps I should clarify- I am saying I think they would work as a complex OR after strength training.
*** Well I have repeatedly said that complex training is worthwhile. So whay argue it. Can you explain the use of them post strength workout?

### If you are talking about adapting to a complex of strength and plyo work, sure it can. If you are talking about an adaptation to plyo work performed after speed work, my question would be what would this adaptation be? I predict lowered rate of force development.

I never said I thought it would be good to do plyos w/ speed work. I wouldn't see the point as they are both dynamic efforts and that would be too much focus on that strength quality for a powerlifter.

*** Sorry, typo, I meant strength work.

### How has this worked? Can you perform more clap push up in less time? Are you getting higher off the ground on your clap push ups? How is it benefiting speed and speed strength?

I say this in theory as I haven't incorporated plyos into my routine. At the level I'm at now I'm getting enough speed work using CAT on my 65% weights for hypertrophy with the advantage being that the movement is more sport specific. I would only incorporate plyos as a means of breaking a plateau if I felt I was getting stale on the sports specific movements.

### Do you want me to make some calls and set up a cage match to settle this?

I think it would be funny if George Bush had taken up on Sadaam's request for an octagon match. Todd and I could could be the undercard and you could be the referee. Seriously though, why would I want to fight someone who challenges my thinking processes? Defending my beliefs will either make them more refined, or if I do feel I am legitimately proven wrong, I will reform my belief with the result being a better training method than before.

*** That and frankly, I'd like to know how big you are...if your Jefferey's size were going to have to race or have chin up contest or something....I'm a little underweight right now anyway.

Funny story of the day: Last summer a good friend and I had been going back and forth all day about any topic imaginable everything from sports, to movies to politics. It got to the point where we were making stuff up just to disagree with the other. You'd have to understand his personality......anyway, by that evening, we had had enough of each other and were going to wrestle to see who was right.....that's only logical right?

I was 240 at the time he was 330! So we end up in his driveway....not his nice grassy yard mind you....much to the enjoyment of our other friends who were present we went at it like titans for about twenty minutes before both collapsing on our backs in the gravel trying to consume every molecule of oxygen available.....then He finally udder some words......"How stupid do we look?" ......to which I replied....."Pretty damn stupid!"

Anyway, one thing he said and is true when it comes to certain grappling sports.....and understand he made this statement acknowledging I was in better shape and stronger than him, although he's not weak by anymeans, but really doesn't workout.....but he said, no matter how out of shape I am, I'm still 330 pounds and that's a lot of weight to move!

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Cory Ackerman
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Sunday, August 7, 2005 8:57 PM

*** That and frankly, I'd like to know how big you are...
Dude, that reminds me of this DJ that put out a few CD's I listened to. He prank called businesses and always had some outlandish request that could never be fulfilled, but was really slick and managed not to make the request so absurd that the legitimacy of the call was brought into play. When the business owner or manager was unable to satisfactorily fulfill his request, he would challenge the guy to a fight, always bringiing the topic up with the same question every time- "How big of a boy are you?" He pulled it off so well with that good ol' boy sounding voice he impersonated. He went by the name of "Roy D. Mercer."

### if your Jefferey's size were going to have to race or have chin up contest or something....

No, and I wouldn't want to piss him off, because he could probably tear my arms out of my sockets and beat me mercilessly with them if he wanted to. Comparitively speaking I'm in good shape compared to the average joe for my bodyweight @250- I can run about a 7:00 mile (but man I'm a hurtin' unit after that) and do about 10 chins w/ a close underhanded grip. I still have a ways to go to be where I once was, but I know it won't be long and I'll be breaking my old PR's! Right now my little sister could probably kick my ass though because I've got a pulled glute/hamstring. I just hope it doesn't mess up my leg and lower back day this Friday.

### I was 240 at the time he was 330! So we end up in his driveway

That's ironic. I wrestled a friend of mine who weighed 300 last summer, and he was just a FREAK of nature strength wise for not being a lifter. I would kill to have that guy's genetics. I would estimate he could beat up at least 100-150 twelve year olds at once Nonetheless, after about five minutes, both of us were winded and we flopped onto the floor on our backs like fish out of water.

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Jeffrey Vaughn
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Sunday, August 7, 2005 9:02 PM

I'll referee but watch out which 300 pound men you choose to race against. I am an ectomorph by design with a background as a 10.9 / 100 meter sprinter and a 38" vertical leap. Those are not my numbers today but I am about the fastest 300 pound man with a crazy jumping ability you will come across. There is an 11' ceiling in our gym that I can touch two-handed with no steps at 310 pounds. that always freaks people out but that explosive training comes into use during liftoff. If you want me to back up that claim I can bust out the video camera...The landings are not pretty to say the least.
I am not making a claim to be faster than you because I do not know you.

Todd, that is a funny story and I have one or two like that. We all think we are in good shape until we have to wrestle around with someone our own size or larger. I can wrestle real well for bout 90 seconds. After that I'm just a blob of muscle and fat that is sucking wind.

Jeffrey Vaughn

http://www.geocities.com/vaughnpower/1.html

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Jeffrey Vaughn
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Sunday, August 7, 2005 9:12 PM

Cory, why did you have to bring up how many twelve year olds he can take on??? I thought we left that subject go a few weeks ago. I brought that up in the gym with this cop friend of mine. This is a bad dude that is super strong and had wrestled D1 in college. He made the claim that there is no number of twelve year olds that can take him on. He made the point that the time factor is more critical to his destruction than the number of attackers. You all are messed up.
One the other subject; I am not a fighter by any standard and I would not rip any ones arms off because of the risk of ruining my reputation. I never had the reputation of a bad-ass and I avoid it at all cost. I learned a while ago that big and strong does not mean tough. Yes, I can squat a bunch of weight but if some dude my size wants to fight; I would kindly decline...

Jeffrey Vaughn

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Cory Ackerman
Guest Todd Wilson re Plyos first vs. last
Sunday, August 7, 2005 10:48 PM

Yeah, the depth with which that guy analyzed such a twisted topic made it all the funnier!!! One day I had some people at work talking about how many they could take out. Quite an entertaining discussion!