Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield

Bill Conner Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 6:16 AM
Saw the thread last night. I knew I had a study and finally dug it out of my grad school boxes. This is dated a bit. From: J.Sports Orthopedics(GDR-1982). Volume VII:V Pages:27-34 Effects of partial movements of weight training on joints. This study cited the changes in joint fluid of the elbows, hips, knees, and shoulders from doing partial movements in the bench press, overhead press(seated) and squat. All exercises were done in a positive movement only. Spotters were used to lower the bars.

All Test subjects did 2 sets of 10 reps twice a week for 8 weeks. Joint fluid was checked before and after the testing period. Joint flexibility was checked also and x-rays taken. No damage occured to any joints in any of the test subjects(25 were tested). Now I trust those evil SOB's in the GDR. They played for keeps. My advice: next time you may want to rip on an idea here have some documented evidence and not you F*&$ing opinion. My last post here. Some of you make me sick.

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Allen Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 7:06 AM
Good one, Bill. Looks like somebody owes The E an apology. Don't expect one though, E. I looked through a few issues of NJSC yesterday afternoon and I did't come up with any studies like Bill. Did see a good discussion on free weights vs. machines in the Dec. 2000 issue. later, Allen

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The E Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 7:31 AM
Thank you Allen. Don't believe anyone needs to apologize for anything. Just don't like some wise acre spouting off with no more than their uneducated opinion about things. My last post also. Charlie Francis.com, here I come.

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Jeff Finlayson Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:07 AM
" My advice: next time you may want to rip on an idea here have some documented evidence and not you F*&$ing opinion. My last post here. Some of you make me sick." Setting the good example, huh?

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Jeff Finlayson partial lifts Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:14 AM
"From: J.Sports Orthopedics(GDR-1982). Volume VII:V Pages:27-34 Effects of partial movements of weight training on joints. This study cited the changes in joint fluid of the elbows, hips, knees, and shoulders from doing partial movements in the bench press, overhead press(seated) and squat. All exercises were done in a positive movement only. Spotters were used to lower the bars. All Test subjects did 2 sets of 10 reps twice a week for 8 weeks. Joint fluid was checked before and after the testing period. Joint flexibility was checked also and x-rays taken. No damage occured to any joints in any of the test subjects(25 were tested)."

Testing subjects with full range lifts for comparison would have really helped.

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Black Jack partial lifts Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:38 AM
Pathetic. coming to the defense of others. I see why people leave here. want to be time.

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Shawn C Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:44 AM
Without having read the actual study, I can say that the abstract you posted proves nothing to me. The results of a study with a population of 25 people can be extrapolated to everyone in the world? 2 sets of 10 reps? what sort of load were the subjects using? I believe the original argument was about the benefit, of 1/4 squats (as a substitute for full squats) for improving athletic performance. So a study 20 years ago shows 1/4 squats do not hurt your knees...groundbreaking.

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Z partial lifts Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:51 AM Agreed with Jeff - also, who were the test athletes (e.g., trained athletes vs. "average joe"), what % of max was used for reps, why 8 weeks - short period of time, etc. As, most likely, we all know, scientific studies are only as good as the variables that are input into the model. For example, Pure Power mag has published quite a few articles detailing how the use of chains and bands have little or no impact on training/max effort. However, I think it is safe to say that most on this board would disagree, if not by science, then from implementation in training.
Healthy debate is good - as for me/my experience, partial rep training has its time and place for certain movements. For example, I periodically do rack lockouts/supports for log training, other as needed.

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Kim Baugher Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:55 AM
I don't feel that The E was ripped into in that post, at least for the most part. There were a few abbrasive posts which slipped through, and I apologize to The E for not catching them. I personally am glad to see folks post their opinions on certain subjects; this is a forum, though, and people will disagree. Hopefully we can get people to disagree in a more amiable fashion next time...
As far as post below, I pretty much stick by what I said for several reasons. First, I've personally seen several cases where people have alleviated joint pain by switching from partial to full squats. I haven't seen any evidence that suggests that full squats are bad for the knees; if anything, from what I've seen (and personally experienced) they're healthy. So I'm not sure why the coach in question would feel that full squats are the culprit here.

Now I did say that I can see how partial squats, used some of the time, might be useful. I'm glad you cited the above study, but it doesn't totally convince me. For one thing, the load is a lot different than a load a trainee would use in the 3-5 rep range - something more typical for an athlete. Secondly, since the trainee is using partial squats, the load will be even higher. Given that, and the fact that the athlete is engaged in other forms of training, it doesn't seem to be completely applicable to the situation. Most importantly, the subjects in the study only had to deal with the concentric portion of the lift because the eccentric portion was handled by spotters. During the execution of a normal squat, without spotters, force will be highest during reversal of the movement, and that's something that didn't occur in the study you cited (due to the spotters).

Within the context of that particular coach's situation, I feel that partial squats will do nothing to help his athletes with their knee pain; all other things being equal, it will either keep things the same, or make them worse. Now that just may be my opinion, but hopefully I've stated myself well here.

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Kim Baugher Gold Member and Forum Moderator View Profile Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 8:59 AM
By the way... Black Jack, Bill Conner, Allen, and The E are all the same person. Posting several times under different names just to make yourself look good is hardly what I would consider proper forum behavior, don't you think?

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Todd Wilson Another look at partial squats
Wednesday, August 20, 2003 9:00 AM

Saw the thread last night. I knew I had a study and finally dug it out of my grad school boxes. This is dated a bit. From: J.Sports Orthopedics(GDR-1982). Volume VII:V Pages:27-34 Effects of partial movements of weight training on joints. This study cited the changes in joint fluid of the elbows, hips, knees, and shoulders from doing partial movements in the bench press, overhead press(seated) and squat. All exercises were done in a positive movement only. Spotters were used to lower the bars. All Test subjects did 2 sets of 10 reps twice a week for 8 weeks. Joint fluid was checked before and after the testing period. Joint flexibility was checked also and x-rays taken. No damage occured to any joints in any of the test subjects(25 were tested). Now I trust those evil SOB's in the GDR. They played for keeps. My advice: next time you may want to rip on an idea here have some documented evidence and not you F*&$ing opinion. My last post here. Some of you make me sick.

### Jeff makes a good point in that this does not compare anything. Secondly, 20 reps a week, for 8 weeks (i.e.,160 total reps) is nothing compared to the volume of an athlete over the course of a year. How can you tell in only 8 weeks if any sort of injury can occur, or be caused? Many injuries that result from lifting weights takes months if not years to be manifested.

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Stephen Seney Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 9:36 AM
Most studies on full range and partial squats that I have read were done with less than maximal loads (60-75%) for higher reps (10-12) and for short duration of time (10-15 weeks). This does not provide an accurate comparison to the training of a strength athlete, but at least there are studies being performed. Perhaps what we need are willing test subjects (50-100) who actively participate in strength sports to volunteer and allow research to be done on them.It could be over a longer time frame (1 year) on the different effects of partial and full range squats with maximal loads(90-100%) applied. The problem is getting enough athletes for the study, getting a university research team to take up the study (funding) and setting up an accurate means of collecting data and determining results from the project.

Either way I believe that both partial and full range movements are beneficial to a balanced strength training program. Just an opinion from an average guy, not a debate or insult to any others.

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Matt Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 9:37 AM
"All exercises were done in a positive movement only" Is that how you lift Bill? I believe it's the bottom of the squat (eccentric to concentric) that causes the stress on the joint. This study didn't investigate that at all due to its positive only nature. Also what tempo and %RM were used? I can't find that study on the web.

BTW Chill the F%^K out. Why so melodramatic? If stuff like this bugs you you obviously have very thin skin. RELAX!! It's just a Forum and opinions are what lead to discussions which lead investigation which leads to more knowledge.

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Gerhardt Milser Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 9:51 AM
Remember the study well. Was funded by the CCCP. Actually everytime I balked at doing heavy front 1/4 squats the study was thrown in my face. Heuser used to hate the USSR for making us test our people with theories, drugs, ect. In one study electrical inpulses of tendons and muscles were measured in olympic lifting assistance work. I took part for the money( a few measly marks). Anyway, we found almost no difference in partial vs. full range of motion in tendons. Big difference in muscles, FOM definitly the way to go for strength gains. Thank you, Garhardt Milser, University of Berlin. Really like the lively discussions here on here board,the passion moves me.

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Chad Touchberry Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 9:57 AM
One study, old, with no control group, and no comparison group? Hmmmmmm Give me 15 and I will change my ways. The truth is the research jury is till out on this one. What we do know is that squats of any kind are safer than leg extensions....

The original argument below was "MY TRACK COACHES DICK IS BIGGER THAN YOUR DICK."

He posted his topic for feedback and he got it. His coach, in our oppinion is wrong. Oppinions are like ass holes....everyone has one.

Chad

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Chad Touchberry Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 9:59 AM
Whoops, didnt mean to post that.... That being said...here is a better study, by Mike Stone, Head Physiologist at the USOC.....

Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1989 Jun;21(3):299-303. Related Articles, Links

The effect of the squat exercise on knee stability.

Chandler TJ, Wilson GD, Stone MH.

Department of Health and Human Performance, Auburn University, AL 36849.

Past studies have produced conflicting results as to the effect of squat exercises on knee stability. One hundred male and female college students were measured using a knee ligament arthrometer on nine tests of knee stability. Over an 8-wk training program, full or half squats did not consistently affect knee stability compared to non-squatting controls. To measure the effect of long-term squat training 27 male powerlifters (14 Elite or Master Class) and 28 male weightlifters (8 Elite or Master Class) were measured on the same tests. Powerlifters were significantly tighter than controls on the anterior drawer at 90 degrees of knee flexion. Both powerlifters and weightlifters were significantly tighter than controls on the quadriceps active drawer at 90 degrees of knee flexion. Data on powerlifters and weightlifters were also analyzed by years of experience and skill level. No effect of squat training on knee stability was demonstrated in any of the groups tested.

Chad

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Chad Touchberry Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 10:03 AM
The following suggests that bar placement may have as great an impact as depth.... Med Sci Sports Exerc. 1996 Feb;28(2):218-24. Related Articles, Links

High- and low-bar squatting techniques during weight-training.

Wretenberg P, Feng Y, Arborelius UP.

Department of Neuroscience, Karolinska Institute, Stockholm, Sweden.

Eight Swedish national class weightlifters performed "high-bar" squats and six national class powerlifters performed "low-bar" squats, with a barbell weight of 65% of their 1 RM, and to parallel- and a deep-squatting depth. Ground reaction forces were measured with a Kistler piezo-electric force platform and motion was analyzed from a video record of the squats. A computer program based on free-body mechanics was designed to calculate moments of force about the hip and knee joints. EMG from vastus lateralis, rectus femoris, and biceps femoris was recorded and normalized. The peak moments of force were flexing both for the hip and the knee. The mean peak moments of force at the hip were for the weightlifters 230 Nm (deep) and 216 Nm (parallel), and for the powerlifters 324 Nm (deep), and 309 Nm (parallel). At the knee the mean peak moments for the weightlifters were 191 Nm (deep) and 131 Nm (parallel), and for the powerlifters 139 Nm (deep) and 92 Nm (parallel). The weightlifters had the load more equally distributed between hip and knee, whereas the powerlifters put relatively more load on the hip joint. The thigh muscular activity was slightly higher for the powerlifters.

Chad

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Shawn C Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 10:43 AM
Great thread! Thanks Jeff, Kim, Chad, Gerhardt, etc.

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JAG Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 11:41 AM
You know I really don't need a study on the topic. I know that 1/4 will not render the same benefit as full squats. It's all about experience under the bar. Also, any type of resistance training will put stress on the joints. Whether it be 1/4 squats or full squats. As you individual reaches peak performance in the movement that stress will become greater. Its more a matter of physics than anything. So there.

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Jeff Finlayson Another look at partial squats Wednesday, August 20, 2003 12:30 PM
Good background and comments. Thank you sir.