Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield

Came across this in my files. Mods, please see to it that this gets put in the permanent archives, will ya? It's really a good discussion!

dwayne grant
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IP: 216.73.159.35 kids and weight training
Tuesday, August 2, 2005 12:15 PM

At what age is it safest to start kids in weight training and how would you go about it,aside from their overall kid activities of running and jumping. I'd like to hear what Doc and RDC have to say if possible.
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Jeffrey Vaughn
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IP: 68.218.175.115 kids and weight training
Tuesday, August 2, 2005 4:19 PM

A child has growth platelets at the ends of their bones that remain soft during the growth phase of their life. Resistance training done prior to the hardening or maturity of these platelets has been shown to cause stunting of growth. Stunting is the premature hardening of the soft platelets on the bones. Anabolic steroids along with early weight training has been showed to have the same negative effects on the growth platelets.
Growth platelets mature and harden at different rates for different people.
I come from a family of athletes and I was not allowed to touch a weight until I was 18 years old. I happened to be six-four at the time.
Jeffrey Vaughn
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Jeff Finlayson
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 4:20 PM

Kids and weight lifting again..
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Brian Wallace
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IP: 138.49.179.20 kids and weight training
Tuesday, August 2, 2005 4:46 PM

"Resistance training done prior to the hardening or maturity of these platelets has been shown to cause stunting of growth."
What references do you have to support this?
Here are some (most peer-reviewed) ones that do not support that statement, and that show children lifting weights to be safer (when properly supervised and exercises are properly prescribed) than other sports. There are many more studies that show it to be beneficial in terms of strength and psychological improvements as well.
Micheli, L. (1988). Strength training in the young athlete. In E. Brown & C. Branta (Eds.), Competitive Sports for Children and Youth (99-105). Champaign, IL: Human Kinetics.
Faigenbaum, A., Draemer, W., Cahill, B., Chandler, J., Dziados, J., Elfrink, L., Forman, E., Gaudiose, M., Micheli, L., Nitka, M., & Roberts, S. (1996). Youth Resistance Training: Position Statement Paper and Literature Review. Strength and Conditioning, December.
Rians, C., Weltman, A., Cahill, B., Janney, C., Trppett, S., & Katch, F. (1987). Strength training for prepubescent males: Is it safe?. The American Journal of Sports Medicine, 15(5), 483-489.
Gumbs, V., Segal, D., Halligan, J., & Lower, G. (1982). Bilateral distal radius and ulnar fractures in adolescent weight lifters. The American Journal of Sports Medicine, 10(6), 375-379.
Gray, M., & Young, L. (1986). Weight training and the prepubescent athlete. The Journal of Applied Research in Coaching and Athltetics, 1(3), 201-211.
Hamill, B. (1994). Relative safety of weight lifting and weight training. Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research, 8, 53-57.
It is perfectly safe, and immensely beneficial in a variety of ways, for children to lift weights if it is done appropriately according to MATURITY LEVEL (not chronological age only).
I know someone (a male) who is 5ƈ" tall who didn't touch a weight until he was in college. You are gonna be the height you are gonna be regardless of if you lift weights or not as a child, so long as you don't facture an epithelial plate (which is nearly impossible to do while lifting weights if things are done correctly, as at least two of the above references point out).
I can't stand is long-standing myths potentially limiting a child from developing habits that will benefit them physically, cognitively, and psychologically for the rest of their lives.
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Todd Wilson
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IP: 216.97.252.157 kids and weight training
Tuesday, August 2, 2005 5:05 PM

They can start whenever they would like to so long as they are properly supervised. There are no negative side effects or stunting of growth. The only negative side effect could be possible injury from bad technique, but you can never grow out of that.
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saad ahmed
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 5:43 PM

I started weights and boxing at age 12,i was 4/11 at that time.And now im 5/9 at age 22.My father still reminds me of me losing my height due to weight training(My dad is also 5/9).I never believed in this myth.By age 14 i was competing in the national boxing division and that was all due to weight training because weight training made me and my punches stronger.Kids can start whenever they want but under professional supervision.
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Eric Stone
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 5:47 PM

Whatever age they are allowed to participate in sports they are able to participate in strength and conditioning training. Most other team sports that young children participate in are far more dangerous then weight training. Proper technique and supervision are a must of course, and basic movements should be used mostly.
ChicagoPowerlifting.com

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Jim Luidl
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 7:06 PM

There is no evidence that weight training by children prior to puberty causes stunting of growth or any negative affects to joints or musculature. Studies from the late 70s and prior were shown to be flawed in their approach and have been rejected.
On the contrary, evidence in the form of bone scans shows that children who participate in resistance training generally have higher bone density than those children who do not participate in resistance training.
This does not mean that adolescent should participate in powerlifting or other heavy sports training until they have matured. In particular, there is no reason to have a child train in this manner until their endocrine system can respond. But, properly designed resistance training can produce positive benefits.
http://kidshealth.org/parent/nutrition_fit/fitness/strength_training.htm...
http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/library/HQ/01010.html
http://www.bodybuilding.com/fun/drobson38.htm
http://www.physsportsmed.com/issues/2003/0903/benjamin.htm
http://aappolicy.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/pediatrics;107/6/1...
http://sportsmedicine.about.com/cs/kids/a/122099a.htm
Rickey Dale Crain once posted an excellent article on this subject that went into the methodology and detailed results. I hope he posts this again.
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Jeffrey Vaughn
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 7:25 PM

I have listened to the information contrary to my post but I have not seen anyone speak intelligently about bone platelets and resistance training effects on them. This leads me to believe that the knowledge about the subject is less than sufficient. I could be wrong entirely about the subject. As with all most matters; we know what we have read.
Like I have said in the past; there are studies to prove or disprove just about everything. Including this.
Jeffrey Vaughn
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Jeffrey Vaughn
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 7:27 PM

Does the group also disagree that premature anabolic steroid use also does not stunt growth?
Jeffrey Vaughn
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Eric Stone
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 7:29 PM

Plenty of studies provided on here Jeff. I have yet to see one proving that lifting stunts growth by injuring grow plates. Please provide one if you can. My guess is you can't because a valid one doesn't exist.
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John Magness
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 8:00 PM

..."Resistance training done prior to the hardening or maturity of these platelets has been shown to cause stunting of growth"...
Well, my son started lifting when he was 13. He's 17 now and is 6ft6in and still growing.
I thought this line of thinking was incorrect?
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Jeffrey Vaughn
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 8:14 PM

I am not saying either of us are wrong; I said before that we could find information for or against this all day long. I mean no disrespect to your opinion but here are 3 valid references supporting my statements:
http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/children.htm
"Exercise will neither stunt nor promote growth in terms of height but it does thicken the bones by increasing mineral deposits (Wilmore & Costill, 1994).
Growing bones are sensitive to stress so repetitive loading should be avoided. The epiphysial plate is susceptible to injury and therefore a fracture to the epiphysial plate prior to full growth could be a serious injury as it could disrupt bone growth."
Pam Staver, of Pam Staver Fitness Fun for Kids, is the author of the book The Magic of Motivating Kids to Move and has been featured in seven fitness videos for children, with her latest release, Serious Fun for 5-12 Year Olds. She can be reached by fax at 770 516-1625.
"Growth plate injuries have occurred in adolescents during resistance training."
Vol. 12, No. 7, pp.43-44. Copyright June 1996, Fitness Management Magazine, Los Angeles, Calif.
In this artical they mention it is rare and occurs mostly when children are not properly supervised. Most times kids are in the gym with their dads and they are lifting weights under his supervision. That is as unsupervised as it gets unless the father is you or me. Most of the time it is a desparate attempt to get a kid stronger in a short amount of time.
No Need TO "Weight": ResistanceTraining for adolescents by: Jason M. Dyer
" Because adolescents are still growing heavy lifting increases the risk of fracturing the growth plate (the end of the bone). During adolescence, the growth plates are thicker and more porous, which makes them more susceptible to injury. "
I enjoy the debate.
Jeffrey Vaughn
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John Magness
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 8:32 PM

Good day Jeffrey!
These look like (the same) opinions of authors.
I didn't go through everything that Jim & Brian referenced. Having seen Jim's & Brian's posts in the past (lot's of science in the links they provide), I'd be more apt to believe their references than the opinions of a few childrens book authors.
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Jeffrey Vaughn
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IP: 68.218.250.248 kids and weight training
Tuesday, August 2, 2005 8:43 PM

That's fair John... I was not trying to show overly scientific sources as much as I was proving a point that we can come up with contradictory information relating to almost anything. I do not dispute that the other sources were credible.
To this point I was only aware of information against the topic; I am now informed otherwise. My opinion is now slightly different relating to the subject. That is why I am here. To gain knowledge.
Jeffrey Vaughn
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John Magness
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 8:51 PM

..."That is why I am here. To gain knowledge"... You & me both brother. Now I only wish I had a brain for knowledge.
I guess for me, contradictory info is only contradictory if it was obtained under the same "rules" as the scientific studies were.
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Todd Wilson
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IP: 216.97.252.253 kids and weight training
Tuesday, August 2, 2005 8:58 PM

I have listened to the information contrary to my post but I have not seen anyone speak intelligently about bone platelets and resistance training effects on them. This leads me to believe that the knowledge about the subject is less than sufficient.
### Well, there is no evidence, none, that idicates resistance training in kids (even pre-adolescent) causes any damage to growth plates. There are no reported cases of dwarfism or stunted growth attributted to resistance training. It's quite illogical. Running, jumping, falling down, swinging from monkey bars, wrestling, etc. on the play ground all invoke far more stress on bones and joints than does any form of lifting. When a child jumps off of something lands and runs away, they are absorbing over 6 times there body weight, no child will squat that. Joints are designed to move, and move objects. Objects create resistance. If moveing resistance caused the growth plates to pre-maturely harden, and therefore stunt growth, farming families of the last quarter millinieum would suffer from stunted growth. When kids grow up on a farm, they have to work from a young age. Farm work is nothing more than simple resistance training, you're just simply not in a "gym" and the resistance implements are not barbells and dumb bells.
I could be wrong entirely about the subject. As with all most matters; we know what we have read.
Like I have said in the past; there are studies to prove or disprove just about everything. Including this.
### This is a lazy way to look at literature. First, assuming this statement is correct, there is still no empirircal evidence to corroborate your assertion. Secondly, When looking at studies, you have to look at how they were conducted. Some are designed better than others. A 6 week study on college P.E. kids may find that one set is as useful, as 3 sets of 10 reps. However, in undertrained, unmotivated college P.E. students, these results are invalid, as the results will change after 12 weeks of training because the body adapts nuerally to training stimulus before adapting morphologically. One must also look at what the body of literature as a whole says. There are plenty of studies (some already given) that indicate the safety of kids lifting weights. There are none, to my knowledge, that find any incidence of consistant injury or health problem associated with proper lifting. You may find a few off hand studies that "conclude" there is no benefit, but they will not fiind health or injury issues with proper resistance training.
I am not saying either of us are wrong; I said before that we could find information for or against this all day long. I mean no disrespect to your opinion but here are 3 valid references supporting my statements:
http://www.brianmac.demon.co.uk/children.htm
"Exercise will neither stunt nor promote growth in terms of height but it does thicken the bones by increasing mineral deposits (Wilmore & Costill, 1994).
### This study essentially disproves you first assertion, secondly, thickening of bones can be a positive thing preventing injuries later in life, and since bones store minerals, I don't see the draw back of increased mineral stores.
Growing bones are sensitive to stress so repetitive loading should be avoided. The epiphysial plate is susceptible to injury and therefore a fracture to the epiphysial plate prior to full growth could be a serious injury as it could disrupt bone growth."
### This was the author's opinion not verified by a study.
Pam Staver, of Pam Staver Fitness Fun for Kids, is the author of the book The Magic of Motivating Kids to Move and has been featured in seven fitness videos for children, with her latest release, Serious Fun for 5-12 Year Olds. She can be reached by fax at 770 516-1625.
"Growth plate injuries have occurred in adolescents during resistance training."
Vol. 12, No. 7, pp.43-44. Copyright June 1996, Fitness Management Magazine, Los Angeles, Calif.
### Again, this is someone's assertion. Being printed doesn't make it correct. How did Ms. Staver determine these growth plates were injured? Even if it does, how is resistance training more stressful to growth plates than playing?
In this artical they mention it is rare and occurs mostly when children are not properly supervised.
### AAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!!
Most times kids are in the gym with their dads and they are lifting weights under his supervision. That is as unsupervised as it gets unless the father is you or me. Most of the time it is a desparate attempt to get a kid stronger in a short amount of time.
### Stupidity has caused more injuries and deaths than every war ever fought.
No Need TO "Weight": ResistanceTraining for adolescents by: Jason M. Dyer
" Because adolescents are still growing heavy lifting increases the risk of fracturing the growth plate (the end of the bone). During adolescence, the growth plates are thicker and more porous, which makes them more susceptible to injury. "
### Again, an unsubstantiated opinion, does he offer data to back this assertion? I prefer not to simply take a guys word for it, especially when there is considerable evidence to the contrary. Maybe these people you have referenced are right, but there opinion is no better than anyone elses without documentation, logical conclusion, or a body of evidence backing it up. I would strongly suggest you check out the book: Strength Training for Young Athletes by William J. Kraemer and Steven J. Fleck, they are the United States two most prominent strength researchers and two of the most prolific authors, both of books and contributions to the literature. There book debunks many of the myths surrounding this topic, and provides the logic and evidence as to the how and why resistance training can be beneficial to youth. Also, I believe Disa Hatfield wrote a very good article on this topic as well if I remember right, perhaps she will see this or maybe Fred or Doc can mention it to her.
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Jeffrey Vaughn
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 9:21 PM

Thanks for the lesson on how to analyze literature and documented studies. I am new to researching things in the exercise arena; not really.
I like the debate but the lessons are not necessary. I try not to get too personal. The information you present is good and I am better for it.
Jeffrey Vaughn
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Todd Wilson
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IP: 216.97.252.253 kids and weight training
Tuesday, August 2, 2005 9:24 PM

One thing I forgot to mention about the epiphysial structure in the joints in kids, is that if injured, and untreated, the injury could cause ossification of the joint. However, this type of injury is much more likely to happen falling out of a tree. However, the act of lifting weight (i.e., moving resistance) does nothing to ossificate joint structures.
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Todd Wilson
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 9:27 PM

I try not to get too personal.
### I apologize if I cam across as geetting personal, I never make any post personal unless I'm making fun of Kim or Smitty training in spandex. Neon.
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Jim Luidl
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 9:33 PM

Normal activity of young children - jumping, running, climbing trees, rolling, wrestling and so on - impose forces upon their joints and tendons, far in excess of a controlled resistance training. So why doesn't this stunt a child's growth. The answewr is it doesn't.
The real question is does an active child need this type of training prior to their endocrine system developing, enabling them to take full advantage of weight training.
Former superheavyweight powerlifting champion Yuri Spinov addressed the subject many years ago in an article for Powerlifting USA. Spinov described the system the Soviets used to categorize potential athletes and put them on a path to an athletic career. At that time it was a regular part of the secondary school system.
Spinov pointed out that everyone was place into one or several sports sports officials believed the individual would excel at - Yuri was placed in soccer, go figure.
Even if a child was pegged as a future Olympic lifer, weight training was not really a part of their diet until they had matured into the early teen years. Spinov pointed out that this was not due to a belief that weight training would injure a child, but the realization that their were more important factors to focus on at this period in a child's life.
Flexibility and general conditioning through regular physical fitness, with an emphasis on gymnastic style activities paid more dividends in the future. These types of activities provided a better physiological and psychological response, as opposed to weight training. In essence, more bang for the buck.
A child may not have participated in weight training, but had built a base of fitness and conditioning that would serve them well on a long term basis - better nuerological response and skill adaptation (motor learning), better muscular development, better conditioning, better psychological prepartion (ability to work as a team, discipline, dealing with competitive pressure), fewer injuries, et. al.
Better results are probably produced by getting children involved in activities that promote dynamic movement and resistance using their own bodyweight. Physical strength is important, but there are other factors influencing atheltic performance, and adolescence is a time where these other factors are more important and provide a better response.
As for steroids. This is really a no brainer. There is no doubt of the negative affects of steroids, testosterone boosters and HGH when taken at any age. To use them during the developing period of a child or young adults life is like pouring gasoline on a fire.
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Todd Wilson
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 9:43 PM

Better results are probably produced by getting children involved in activities that promote dynamic movement and resistance using their own bodyweight. Physical strength is important, but there are other factors influencing atheltic performance, and adolescence is a time where these other factors are more important and provide a better response.
### This is an excellent point Jim, and in addition, while I assert and maintain the safety of resistance training for kids. Very few have the maturity and discipline (self imposed or otherwise) to go into a weight room and lift in a systematic fashion. That is why for those kids gymnastics, martial arts, wrestling, and track and field, are often better alternatives to developing this base of conditioning. Virtually all Soviet athletes started out in one of those sports during the Soviet sport juggenaut during the cold war, according to Yessis.
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Dr. Squat
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 10:51 PM

...here's some stuff I've been working on...
The Development Of Bones
Bones offer much more than simply the frame of the body. In addition, they also are important for protection of vital organs (such as the brain and central nervous system), storage of many nutrients (including calcium and phosphorus), allow the muscles something to pull on for movement, and they are also responsible for red blood cell development. In the human embryo, the skeleton is composed of either fibrous membranes or hyaline cartilage. The ossification process (whereby these fibrous membranes and cartilage gradually evolve into bone), actually starts as early as six weeks after conception. Two types of ossification have been identified:
• Intramembranous ossification: The simpler of the two processes, intramembranous ossification is responsible for the formation of the flat bones of the roof of the skull, the lower jawbone, and most of the collarbones. Intramembranous ossification occurs when osteoblasts (cells that are responsible for bone formation) begin to cluster in the fibrous membrane of the embryonic “skeleton”. This cluster site is called the center of ossification. The osteoblasts next secrete intercellular fibrous substances which form a matrix or framework in which calcium salts are deposited (a process known as calcification). eventually, numerous calcified cluster fuse onto the latticework of spongy bone. The spaces between the clusters (called “trabeculae”) begin to full with red marrow. Eventually, the outer layers of spongy bone will be reconstructed into compact bone. • Intracartilaginous ossification: This process is responsible for most bone growth in the body. Intracartilaginous ossification is most readily apparent in long bones, which are composed of the diaphysis, or long central shaft, and the epiphysis, or ends of the bone. Intracartilaginous ossification begins at the diaphysis, when blood vessels penetrate the perichondrium (a fibrous membrane that covers the cartilage). Upon vascularization, the perichondruim is called the periosteum, and the cartilage forming cells (called chondrocytes) become osteoblasts. The osteoblasts secrete a ring of fibrous substance around the diaphysis, which subsequently becomes bone. As ossification becomes nearly completed in the epiphysis and the diaphysis, a ring of cartilage remains between the tow structures. This ring is called the “growth plate”. This plate serves to allow the long bones to continue to lengthen as your child grows.
A complex process? Yes, it is! But there is one important part you should definitely be familiar with. The epiphyseal growth plates are fully replaced by bone between the ages of 15 and 19, although the process may continue into the mid twenties. Young athletes who engage in repetitious, high - stress activities may experience injury to these growth plates, disrupting later growth. This growth plate is much weaker than the bone which surrounds it as well as the ligaments (up to 2 to 5 times weaker than ligaments and much more so than bones). Excessive trauma in the form of running as well as skills and situations in sports such as basketball, football and baseball involves potential damage to these growth plates. The key to preventing such damage is through proper conditioning. The inclusion of a supplemental resistance program assists in strengthening those joints that will be subject to trauma. the specific “loading” of the stress through resistance training also helps stimulate normal growth and development of the underlying bones. There is evidence that prolonged trauma to the joint may result in injury to the growth plates as well. Long distance runners and little league pitchers are particularly at risk due to repeated trauma to their growth plates. The key is variation and alliterating your child’s activities, which will change the load and stress on their skeletal system.
The Growth And Development Of Muscle Mass
At birth, your child’s muscle mass will make up approximately 25% of their weight. This percentage will nearly double by the time they reach their adult years. Due to increased testosterone production during puberty, boys experience a greater increase of muscle mass during this time as compared to girls. However, muscle mass in girls during and before puberty is still present. The increase in muscle mass appears to be a result of each individual muscle fiber becoming larger rather than an increase in the number of muscle fibers. As bones grow longer, the length of each muscle fiber also increases. Peak muscle mass is seen around the age of 18 to 25 in males and 16 to 20 in females. Continued muscle growth, of course is possible with the aid of resistance exercise and careful dietary practices which are designed to promote muscle growth. Now comes a topic of great debate among exercise scientists, as well as those who practice exercise science without the needed information to do so: “Is strength - training safe and effective for children?” This is a topic in which exercise scientists frequently disagree. Let’s look at the pro and con opinions of some noted exercise scientists (as well as our rebuttal):
Dr. Ken Cooper:
“I don’t recommend the use of weights or other apparatus by a child until at least age 10, and in most cases after age 12.”
Dr. Cooper is known as “The aerobic guru” and his advise is well sought - after. Apparently Dr. Cooper feels that weight - resistance exercise is potentially damaging to the growth plates found in the bones of kids. While this is true, this danger is also present when kids engage in long distance running. As we stated earlier, the key is variation of exercises, as well as proper supervision.
Thomas Kurz, M.Sc. (quoting a study by Sulmitsev, in which arch height was measured during lifts) :
“11 and 12 year olds can safely lift 30% of body weight; 13 and 14 year olds can use up to 50%; and 15 and 16 year olds can use up to 100%. Kurz says that the growth processes of the long bones is complete at age 17.”
Two thoughts on this quote. First, what kinds of lifts? For example, very few if any people can safely perform a biceps curl with 100% of their body weight, while at any age squatting 30, 50 or 100% of their weight is not dangerous. Second, “the growth processes of the long bones is complete at age 17” is a general statement. Bone growth can continue into the child’s twenties.
Charlie Francis (Olympic track and field coach):
“Another myth that comes to mind is that power - related work can not and should not be performed by children and pre - adolescents. The fact is that kids routinely do more power - related work such as throwing stones, climbing ropes and trees, jumping, and so forth. They do so safely. The key is that the child himself determines how much of this activity is safe, not a coach or parent.”
Here is a keen observation by perhaps one of the greatest coaches of all time! We would like to add that weight - resistance training be supervised by a certified fitness trainer or strength coach for any age group, is it is potentially dangerous for adults as well.
Jack Wilmore and David Costill:
“Generally, the youngster will adapt well to the same type of training routine used by the mature athlete. But training programs for children and adolescents should be designed specifically for each age group, keeping in mind the developmental factors associated with that age.”
Amen! But keep in mind that chronological age is not the only determinate of maturity. Furthermore, we would like to extend this advise to adults as well. Your program and that of your child should be specifically designed for the user.
Dr. Paul Ward (From The Encyclopedia of Weight Training):
“The results of the small amount of research that has been completed regarding the utilization of weight training in prepubescent and pubescent children have produced evidence that weight training for these ages is strongly indicated. This research evidence combined with empirical evidence plus the findings in a number of national physical fitness surveys that demonstrate the strong need for strength development in our your boys and girls, is compelling confirmation that weight training programs are not only safe and effective for prepubescent and pubescent children but must be vigorously pursued...”
Again, proper supervision and program design is the key.
Here is our stand on resistance - training for kids: When weight training programs are properly conceived, organized, and implemented and the proper equipment is available there is no reason to believe that injuries will occur or that the child will not benefit. The existing research evidence and empirical observations have shown that weight training is safe and effective at any age. The key to success of any resistance - training activity is the construction of a scientific program along with adequate supervision. With the proper equipment (meaning it is adaptable to their physical dimensions) and supervision, your child can begin to use reasonable resistance work at any age.
(Insert guidelines here...)
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Jim Luidl
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Tuesday, August 2, 2005 11:05 PM

This has been an interesting post. Like all exercise and sports endeavors, the key to success is to prioritize those things that promote better health or athletic performance if that is the goal.
While resistance training is a productive form of exercise that can be performed at almost any age, it like all other methodologies - means to an end - has its place within a larger whole.
Before someone decides on a activity for a child, for whatever reason, important factors to consider are: The child's interest, socialization (part of growing up), the child's enthusiasm and satisfaction with the activity.
I know as a kid I much preferred playing soccer with all my friends, as opposed to being a gym rat. In fact as a 7 or 8 year old, I would have found it booooooring. And in general I was probably just became as strong participating in soccer, swimmng and football as I would achieved in a gym - and better conditioned. In addition, the positive social and physchological skills developed in team or group sports are just as important as the development of physical ability.
While there in research that exists, which supports the negative affects of weight training for children - as pointed out by Mr. Vaughn - ongoing research is debunking these older studies, and the preponderance of evidence shows that the results of these older studies were incorrect, mainly due to flawed methodology or the study being driven to prove an assumption, not fact.
While ample evidence supports the the affective use of weight training for kids, this must be weighed against what is gained when taking into consideration a child's physical potential at that time of their life, and the other issues addressed within this post. What's best for the child is the overriding factor.
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rkt88edmo
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IP: 67.188.201.238 kids and weight training
Wednesday, August 3, 2005 12:58 AM

My parents raised me hydroponically to protect my growth plates from any jarring shocks and I still only grew to be 5 ' 10 " :Þ
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tcu lifter
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IP: 138.237.172.29 kids and weight training
Wednesday, August 3, 2005 1:38 AM

Can we say that my friends Travis and Marcus are just being babies when they cite their growing bones as the reason they can't Smolov with me in the gym?? They are both 20 yrs old and 6 foot 6 inches.... 'Bout 350 pounds each...
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Rod Piper
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IP: 144.139.124.176 kids and weight training
Wednesday, August 3, 2005 4:47 AM

I am avoiding this subject I remember in 2003 a simular thread.
Rod Piper
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phil elliott
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IP: 216.216.79.64 kids and weight training
Wednesday, August 3, 2005 8:02 AM

Didn't Doc start out in gymnastics?
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Jeff S
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IP: 216.55.83.18 kids and weight training
Wednesday, August 3, 2005 9:21 AM

Doc - excellent post! Your insight really makes a lot of sense, and so do the sources you referenced.
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Mourad Tariq
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IP: 134.84.96.175 kids and weight training
Wednesday, August 3, 2005 11:04 AM

"There is no doubt of the negative affects of steroids, testosterone boosters and HGH when taken at any age. To use them during the developing period of a child or young adults life is like pouring gasoline on a fire."
- For a child or even a young person or women to use steroids or testosterone boosters poses some obvious risks. Children using steroids is stupid. However, for older adult males using steroids/testosterone boosters (not abusing) there is some doubt of the obvious risk. In fact studies show the exact opposite, the for older adult males testosterone therapy is usually more beneficial than negative.
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Mike Connell
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IP: 128.147.38.10 kids and weight training
Wednesday, August 3, 2005 11:57 AM

"Faigenbaum, A., Draemer, W., Cahill, B., Chandler, J., Dziados, J., Elfrink, L., Forman, E., Gaudiose, M., Micheli, L., Nitka, M., & Roberts, S. (1996). Youth Resistance Training: Position Statement Paper and Literature Review. Strength and Conditioning, December. "
Avery Faigenbaum is arguably the most knowledgable man on Earth when it comes to children and weight training.
See also:
Faigenbaum Et Al, Psychological Effects of Strength Training on Children. Journal of Sport Behavior, 20 (2): 164-175, 1997
Mike
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Dr. Squat
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IP: 69.250.142.36 kids and weight training
Thursday, August 4, 2005 1:52 AM

Mourad, Mike, what are your points????
Who is this guy "Avry?" I never heard of him! I see the reference, but I gotta tell ya, one study does NOT an "expert" make!
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Mourad Tariq
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IP: 128.101.21.81 kids and weight training
Thursday, August 4, 2005 12:11 PM

My point was to try not to let more false information about steroids/hgh/test boosters be spouted out on the web. Jim spoke of the negative effects of steroids/hgh at any age... With what is going on in the media about pro athletes and baseball players there is a lot of bad press and false information about steroids right now. Although your web sites prohibits talking about steroid specifics, it doesn't mean that we should demonize all products. Steroids and Hgh can have positive effects on adult males, there are many studys that back this up. In fact your own product lipoforce is a safe Hgh product that has positive effects on many men at the right age. Let's not color all these products bad like the newscasters do.
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Jim Luidl
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IP: 172.198.18.197 kids and weight training
Thursday, August 4, 2005 6:55 PM

Mourad, are you on crack?
These are prescription drugs that are used for specific therapy as guided by a medical professional. To use steroids to simply become man mountain MacGee, without any thought of the consequences is stupid.
Yes there are positive results for adults, under the supervision of a physician and for diagnosed medical reasons.
The drug is not what is being demonized, there abuse is. The evidence of these consequences are wide-spread and readily available. You are playing with your body chemistry, and in the case of HGH, with your genetics. Unless you are taking them for a specific medical reason, then you are comitting a felony.
And no lipoforce is not an HGH product like what I can get from a doctor. And any doctor that's handing them out for other than medical reasons, is also comitting a felony.
Use your head, get your facts straight.
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Mark G
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IP: 169.252.4.21 kids and weight training
Thursday, August 4, 2005 7:37 PM

Why would you put a kid in a gym when you could have him do yardwork, climb trees, throw rocks, play tag, help mom with the groceries, etc. Call it yardwork, strongman, dinosaur, whatever- it's all training.
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Mike Connell
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IP: 128.147.38.10 kids and weight training
Friday, August 5, 2005 7:37 AM

"Mourad, Mike, what are your points????"
I don't know what point Mourad was making, But I wasn't really making one, other than to point out that if someone reading the board was interested in the subject of kids and weight lifting, this guy has good research. I thought it was self-evident that resistance training was good for kids, so I didn't offer anything in that dispute.
"Who is this guy "Avry?" I never heard of him!"
I can't help that, Doc. He's a board member of the NSCA, if that helps explain things.
http://www.nsca-lift.org/AboutNSCA/bod.shtml
Here's a sample of some of his research:
Faigenbaum AD. Zaichkowsky LD. Gardner DE. Micheli LJ. Anabolic steroid use by male and female middle school students. [Journal Article] Pediatrics. 101(5):E6, 1998 May. UI Faigenbaum AD. Milliken LA. Cloutier G. Westcott WL. Perceived exertion during resistance exercise by children. [Journal Article. Validation Studies] Perceptual & Motor Skills. 98(2):627-37, 2004 Apr. UI: 15141928
Faigenbaum AD. Milliken LA. Westcott WL. Maximal strength testing in healthy children. [Journal Article] Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research. 17(1):162-6, 2003 Feb. UI: 12580672
Faigenbaum AD. Milliken LA. Loud RL. Burak BT. Doherty CL. Westcott WL. Comparison of 1 and 2 days per week of strength training in children. [Clinical Trial. Controlled Clinical Trial. Journal Article] Research Quarterly for Exercise & Sport. 73(4):416-24, 2002 Dec. UI: 12495243
Pikosky M. Faigenbaum A. Westcott W. Rodriguez N. Effects of resistance training on protein utilization in healthy children. [Journal Article] Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 34(5):820-7, 2002 May. UI: 11984301
Faigenbaum AD. Loud RL. O'Connell J. Glover S. O'Connell J. Westcott WL. Effects of different resistance training protocols on upper-body strength and endurance development in children. [Clinical Trial. Journal Article. Randomized Controlled Trial] Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research. 15(4):459-65, 2001 Nov. UI: 11726257 „X Howell AK. Gaughan JP. Cairns MA. Faigenbaum AD. Libonati JR. The effect of muscle hypoperfusion-hyperemia on repetitive vertical jump performance. [Clinical Trial. Journal Article. Randomized Controlled Trial] Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research. 15(4):446-9, 2001 Nov. UI: 11726255
Faigenbaum AD. Strength training for children and adolescents. [Review] [114 refs] [Journal Article. Review] Clinics in Sports Medicine. 19(4):593-619, 2000 Oct. UI: 11019731
Faigenbaum AD. Micheli LJ. Preseason conditioning for the preadolescent athlete. [Journal Article] Pediatric Annals. 29(3):156-61, 2000 Mar. UI: 10734648
Faigenbaum AD. Westcott WL. Loud RL. Long C. The effects of different resistance training protocols on muscular strength and endurance development in children. [Journal Article] Pediatrics. 104(1):e5, 1999 Jul. : 9565439
Masamoto N. Larson R. Gates T. Faigenbaum A. Acute effects of plyometric exercise on maximum squat performance in male athletes. [Journal Article] Journal of Strength & Conditioning Research. 17(1):68-71, 2003 Feb. UI: 12580658
Pikosky M. Faigenbaum A. Westcott W. Rodriguez N. Effects of resistance training on protein utilization in healthy children. [Journal Article] Medicine & Science in Sports & Exercise. 34(5):820-7, 2002 May. UI: 11984301
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Rickey Dale Crain
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IP: 66.190.186.233 kids and weight training
Friday, August 5, 2005 11:22 AM

How Young is too Young? Youth and Teenage Weightlifting.
By Rickey Dale Crain
How young is too young to start weightlifting? Olympic Lifting? Powerlifting? An increasing number of pre-teen and teens, from both sexes are using resistant weight training exercises to increase their size, strength, speed and quickness not only in gym classes but intramural and competitive sports.
See below 13 year old Samantha Jo Crain squatting 230 pounds with near perfect form.
Is it ever too young to begin lifting weights or participate in competitive weightlifting? This is a very controversial question without a simple answer. Many medical professionals are not in favor of pre-pubescent weight training or weightlifting, but then again most of them are anti-anything to do with advanced sport competitive activity that is above the general fitness and exercise level. Very little, if any, carefully controlled research on this subject has been conducted, and most positions are often not evidence based. Weight training is safer than most other sports. It must be supervised by qualified and knowledgeable people who know the proper form, style and technique and then are willing to pass it along, patiently. Many countries like England and it’s NGB of weightlifting, BAWLA offer courses to teachers and coaches for just this purpose. My brother and I in the 50’s, started lifting at age 2-3 years old and competitively lifted at ages 9 and 10. My sister did the same. I started my 2 kids at the same age and they lifted in contests at an even earlier age. I have trained hundreds of kids of both sexes under the age of 15 with no problems or injuries and with lots of positive effects both mentally and physically. Weightlifting can not only increase muscle, ligament and tendon strength, enhance muscular development, lower body fat percentage but also improve coordination and sports performance. Stress levels are lowered and mentally it improves ones self image and worth while increasing the chance of continuing an exercise regiment as they grow into adulthood. The ones in the "don't lift weights when you are young school" generally argue from three main points of view. First, because the growth plates, bones and other areas of a child's body are developing through the pre-pubescent and pubescent years, and trauma during this period can have effects on long term growth, so weight training can present a risk. There is certainly evidence that children who suffer traumatic injuries to their growth plates may suffer adverse affects to their growth and development. It is possible that damage may occur to those who perform very heavy work over a sustained period during their growth years, though the evidence here is very limited and speculations in this area have generally been derived from studies of heavy child labor and not weightlifting under a controlled environment. There is no evidence that participation in the sport of weightlifting hampers an athlete's growth in any way. Sports governing bodies in Eastern Europe (where hundreds of thousands of athletes have competed in weightlifting for many years) have studied the growth patterns of weightlifters versus non-weightlifters and have not discovered any difference. Scientists and medical professionals have postulated that strenuous training by young people might affect their growth adversely, but little scientific evidence of this has not been developed - certainly not in the context of rational training programs conducted under careful supervision. At least one study reportedly performed in the former Soviet Union, suggests that weightlifting positively (though minimally) affected the ultimate height of young people. Second, there is the concern that children are known to take risks in their athletic endeavors, because of competitive urges, lack of awareness of their limitations, or even parental pressures. They also lack the motor skills of an adult. Consequently, children may try to lift heavy weights and sustain a serious injury. But this argument applies to all sports both competitive and intramural. Some guidelines must be set and supervision by qualified coaches should be sufficient to tackle the problem. Third, it is generally believed that children will have only limited strength gains due to weight training (they will learn to exert force more effectively - a neurological phenomena - but their muscles will not grow significantly because of hormonal and other developmental factors). Consequently, the value of such training is limited in prepubescent youth. All of the above arguments have some validity and could be applied to an extent to athletes who are going through puberty as well. However, there are counter arguments as well. First, while overloading the body of a young person can never be justified, the principle that the body adapts (within limits) to applied stimuli, suggests that the application of progressive resistance to the body may assist the developing body in growing optimally. For example, it may well be that resistance, applied judiciously, will assist the young body in optimizing the development of muscle strength, coordination, bone density, etc. during its growth. Although strength gains in children/kids are noted as they train, much of the improvement comes from neurogenic adaptation, i.e. the body learns to recruit more muscle fibers, recruits them faster and recruits them more fully, than from actual strength gains. Second, when carefully supervised, many young athletes seem to enjoy weight training. This activity can be so beneficial over ones lifetime, that early development of the weight training habit may have its benefits (if such activity is purely voluntary). It is somewhat surprising that many parents fear weight training yet often express little concern when their children engage in activities such as soccer (where serious knee injuries occur with regularity) or gymnastics (where spinal chord injuries present a true risk). On a comparative basis, there appears to be a significantly greater risk associated with these latter activities. Finally, while such evidence is anecdotal, some great weightlifters began to train at a very young age and they have not seemed to suffer any adverse consequences. For example, 3 time Olympic Weightlifting Champion, Naim Suleymanoglu, reportedly began strenuous training at the age of 10. He is now over the age of thirty and not only seems to have suffered no ill effects from his training, but he made a credible assault on a 4th Olympic Championship after he was 30, again with no apparent problems. A few other great powerlifters like Lamar Gant, Mike Bridges, and Gayla Crain were all World Champions or World Record Holders while still a teenager. All were lifting weights far above anyone else in their weight class had ever done before, and even at so young an age. In conclusion, there is evidence and there are arguments pro and con on the issue of whether pre-pubescent athletes should lift weights, and those arguments could be extended to varying degrees to athletes who are in puberty (certainly, there is much evidence that after puberty, those who follow a well designed and supervised resistance training program enjoy many benefits). Therefore, only a child, his or her parents and their physician (who should always grant approval before training is begun) can decide this issue on an individual basis. Whatever the decision, this much is clear. The very young athlete should never be pushed, allowed to use maximum weights, or train very strenuously or for periods of long duration. Such athletes should always be supervised and focus on learning and employing correct technique when they exercise. There is evidence to suggest that whatever benefits may be attained, are attained from moderate training (e.g., moderate weights, training 2-3 times per week, with a couple of breaks in training of a few weeks during the year). Due to the high adaptability of the young body, the former Soviets found that young athletes who lifted moderate weights actually improved faster than those who lifted heavy ones and such moderate training provides a margin of safety. Second, the training of young people should always be carefully supervised to assure that correct and safe lifting practices are followed. Third, any indication of negative reactions to such exercise must be addressed immediately. In the end, individual reactions to training vary significantly and such reactions must be carefully considered. Those who are seeking additional information in this area may want to contact the National Strength and Conditioning Association, in Colorado Springs, CO, as they have produced a position paper on this subject, as well as articles in some of their periodicals. The American Orthopedic Society for Sports Medicine and the American Academy of Pediatrics have also produced position papers on this subject. Rickey Lee Crain at age 4 deadlifting 74 pounds.
With respect to injuries overall, weightlifting is as strenuous sport, and any strenuous sport can cause injuries. But the injuries that are normally attributable to weightlifting have little basis in fact (e.g., hernias are rare among weightlifters). Injuries that do occur are generally overuse injuries (e.g., tendonitis) which can occur in any sport in which athletes attempt to progress in their training too rapidly. The serious kinds of injuries that are often associated with other more popular sports, such as deaths and spinal chord injuries, are virtually unknown in weightlifting (no, weightlifters do not normally drop weights on their heads). Overall, the risks of weightlifting are grossly exaggerated by the general public. When weightlifting is properly supervised it is a very safe activity relative to other strenuous sports. Rickey Dale Crain doing a 125 pound Clean and Jerk at age 9, at 60 pounds bodyweight. The American Orthopedic Society for Sports Medicine recommends 2-3 training sessions per week with adequate stretching, warm-up and cool-down exercises. Children with Osgood-Schlatters Syndrome should avoid lifting at a young age as well as those with Scoliosis or Lordosis. Dr Mel Siff states “…considerable biomechanical research has shown that the stresses imposed on the body by common sporting activities such as running, jumping and hitting generally are far larger (by as much as 300%) than those imposed by Powerlifting or Olympic Lifting”……”It is high time that this grossly exaggerated urban myth about competitive lifting damage to juvenile growth plates is dispelled”…..”If anyone is willing to let a child take part in football, soccer, hockey, basketball, baseball, gymnastics or skiing, then that child should be permitted to take part in competitive lifting.” Weight training as a resistance exercise will have mostly positive results in kids as well as adults. Movements should be slow and under control. The workouts should be staggered while participating in other sports. Parental involvement is a given and doing it as a family activity is a great idea also. So how young is too young? Perhaps it is never too young? rdc
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Mourad Tariq
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IP: 128.101.21.81 kids and weight training
Friday, August 5, 2005 11:52 AM

No, I'm drug free. I don't even drink alcohol.
"These are prescription drugs that are used for specific therapy as guided by a medical professional. To use steroids to simply become man mountain MacGee, without any thought of the consequences is stupid."
- Yes, but to do anything wihtout thinking of the consequences is stupid.
"Yes there are positive results for adults, under the supervision of a physician and for diagnosed medical reasons."
- Yes and there are also positive results for adults not under the supervison of a physician.
"The drug is not what is being demonized, there abuse is. The evidence of these consequences are wide-spread and readily available."
Really? Find me some (not anecdotal) evidence that shows these horrible effects on men properly using steroids. There isn't any! But there are studies that show the benefit for steroid use I can site them if you want. Studies show that side effects are minimal, roid rage is a myth, and that there is no evidence that suggests that proper use causes earlier death..
"You are playing with your body chemistry, and in the case of HGH, with your genetics. Unless you are taking them for a specific medical reason, then you are comitting a felony."
- Yes, you are also playing with your body chemistry when you eat food. You genetics? I don't know how well you understand genetics, but you genetics are being altered right now! Hormones in your body carry transcription factors into your cell nucleus and change them all the time. If you are talking about altering germ line cells (probably what you mean by playing with your genetics), no Hgh does not do that.
"And no lipoforce is not an HGH product like what I can get from a doctor. And any doctor that's handing them out for other than medical reasons, is also comitting a felony."
- Well... You said steroids, test boosters and hgh. Now you are excluding lipoforce because its not what you get from a doctor. How was I supposed to know what you actually meant. Second, you mentioned twice that the posession of steroids is a felony. SO WHAT! In some countries creatine is illegal, if pharmacutical companies have their way Vitamin C could be illegal without a script, what does this mean. I said the dangers are overstated and the drugs are demonized, not that they are good under the law. Totally different. That does not make your point. I do have my facts straight. I also have a decent understanding of biochemistry, maybe you should check yours.
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phil elliott
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IP: 216.216.79.64 kids and weight training
Friday, August 5, 2005 12:17 PM

It is strange because I have to look up drugs all the time because of nursing school. If you look up any testosterone/derivative/ drug, it always states that you should not give for physical enhancement or sports perfomance. There is such a huge deal made about it. It is funny to me because if a woman goes to a doctor for HRT, no questions asked. Years later they are finding some negative side effects, but the prescribing of these drugs goes on unabated. There is such a stupid stigma with testosterone...
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Jim Luidl
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IP: 172.194.69.100 kids and weight training
Saturday, August 6, 2005 10:37 AM NEW!

Mourad,
Do what you want. Take all of them you want. Be dumb.
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