Max Tension and Force

Allen Bradley
Guest How Do You Create Max Tension In Movements Where You Can't Lift Explosively? Wednesday, November 19, 2003 10

I understand how Doc talks about the importance of time under max tension but how do you create max tension in some movements where lifting explosively is dangerous? For instance, in the keystone deadlift where you can wrench your back in the top position lifting explosively. Any ideas on how to create max tension in movements where explosive lifting is not a good idea?

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JAG
Guest How Do You Create Max Tension In Movements Where You Can't Lift Explosively? Wednesday, November 19, 2003 10

more weight?

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Chad Touchberry
Guest How Do You Create Max Tension In Movements Where You Can't Lift Explosively? Wednesday, November 19, 2003 11

hate to burst your bubble, but you cant create maximal tension during and explosive lift. Chad

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Allen Bradley
Guest How Do You Create Max Tension In Movements Where You Can't Lift Explosively? Wednesday, November 19, 2003 11

Say What? Lifting explosively does produce max tension. You can do so all the way down to 55% of max. Below that, the weight is too light. But yes you can produce max tension by lifting explosively.

Ohhh boy.... a muscle will shorten at different velocities dependent upon the external load that is placed on it. As the load increases the velocity decreases. If velocity decreases the the explosive nature of a lift decreases.

Ever hear of a force time curve? at Maximum tension, you are at maximal load....Happen to know what the velocity is at that point??? ZERO!

If you cant accelerate an object, create velocity, demonstrate power (as defined as p=f/t) how can you be explosive?

Chad

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Mike
Guest How Do You Create Max Tension In Movements Where You Can't Lift Explosively? Wednesday, November 19, 2003 11

From Zatsiorsky's book, There are 3 ways to achieve maximal muscular tension

1) Lifting a maximum load = maximal effort method

2) Lifting a nonmaximal load to failure = repeated effort method

3) Lifting a nonmaximal load with the highest attainable speed = dynamic effort method

Mike,

Turn the page, pg 105.... "Because of the existance of the explosive strength deficit, it is impossible to attain Fmm in fast movements against intermediate resistance. Therefore the method of dynamic effort is used not for increasing max stregnth, but only to improve rate of force development."

Chad

Just found that. But then explain page 100, where it states

Lifting a nonmaximal load with the highest attainable speed produces maximal muscular tension That seems contradictory to what you just posted.

those are 3 methods of strength training....the in addition section should have been number 4, not the dynamic effort method.

Chad

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Jay
Guest How Do You Create Max Tension In Movements Where You Can't Lift Explosively? Wednesday, November 19, 2003 1

To create max tension on grinding lifts just flex, or tense all your muscles as hard as you can, regardless of the weight. This is the base of all of pavel tstasoulines writings.

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Thomas N. Thekan
Guest How Do You Create Max Tension In Movements Where You Can't Lift Explosively? Wednesday, November 19, 2003 2

Chad, Your last line reads

"p=f/t". Are you absolutely sure?????

I suggest that

power = force x distance/time or force x velocity

TNT

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Carlo Buzzichelli
Guest How Do You Create Max Tension In Movements Where You Can't Lift Explosively? Wednesday, November 19, 2003 4

Thomas is right.

P = (m.a).d/t = F.v

I think Chad just made a typo, or he intended to keep distance constant or was just thinking of the force/time curve which doe not take into account distance, but it's good indicator of explosiveness (N/ms).

At 70% of 1RM we have higher Power value than at 100% (more contribution of velocity), but Force is lower (a few hundreds N), thus muscular tension is lower, too, although the acceleration of the load does increase it.

Prof. Mel Siff, who once called me "one of his pupils" making me very proud, wrote that maximum tension is only possible for a few milliseconds.

I think we should add that, in any case, the tension achieved would not be a "maximum maximorum". For istance, higher tension levels are achieved with supramaximal eccentric loads.

Best, Carlo Buzzichelli

http

//www.carlobuzzichelli.com

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Todd Wilson
Guest How Do You Create Max Tension In Movements Where You Can't Lift Explosively? Wednesday, November 19, 2003 4

Prof. Mel Siff, who once called me "one of his pupils" making me very proud, wrote that maximum tension is only possible for a few milliseconds.

### This is a very important point, as it is true, but you could also argue for maximum tension from a relative standpoint. For example, maximum relative tension would be the max tension one could reach despite fatigue from previous sets. Where as absolute maximum tension would be the greatest tension the muscle could undergo during optimum conditions, which indeed would last for only fractions of a second.

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CoolColJ
Guest How Do You Create Max Tension In Movements Where You Can't Lift Explosively? Wednesday, November 19, 2003 4

accomodating resistance helps prolong it though

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chad touchberry
Guest How Do You Create Max Tension In Movements Where You Can't Lift Explosively? Wednesday, November 19, 2003 4

Nice to see you on here carlos. You dont post nearly enough.

Chad

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Dr. Squat
Administrator

How Do You Create Max Tension In Movements Where You Can't Lift Explosively? Thursday, November 20, 2003 5

Great thread! Clearly, with lighter loads you cannot achieve max tension in any absolute terms. When I harp on the max tension thing (e.g., time under MAX tension), I hope it's clear that I mean max for whatever weight you're using! Dip below 55-60 percent max, and the speed of movement is so great that you cannot approach max tension within the short time of movement. Then, up close to your 1RM, you can't get the requisite time (owing to fatigue).

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Allen Bradley
Guest Doc Is Correct About Max Tension and Force. Thursday, November 20, 2003 7

From Steven Plisk,

"In order to execute athletic movements, the object must be rapidly moved through an acceleration path with peak force applied for a very short time (typically about 0.1-0.2 second, whereas absolute max force development requires 0.6-0.8 second. (Figure 2) Brief explosive force production is what separates the good athletes from the not-so-good ones."

So absolute max force can be produced with .6-.8 seconds. That usually occurs around 55% of a 1RM with CAT.

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Chad Touchberry
Guest Doc Is Correct About Max Tension and Force. Thursday, November 20, 2003 8

As doc pointed out below, you can create max tension at that weight but not absolute max. Your original question was "how do you create max tension when you cant be explosive?" I told you to check a force time curve "DUMBASS". Jag suggested, correclty, more weight, which would lower the speed, and create greater tension.

To reqoute Zatski ""Because of the existance of the explosive strength deficit, it is impossible to attain Fmm in fast movements against intermediate resistance. Therefore the method of dynamic effort is used not for increasing max stregnth, but only to improve rate of force development."

Chad

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Joe Skopec
Gold Member and Forum Moderator

Doc Is Correct About Max Tension and Force. Thursday, November 20, 2003 9

Good subject, be cool guys.

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Allen Bradley
Guest Doc Is Correct About Max Tension and Force. Thursday, November 20, 2003 9

Joe,

Thanks but Chad always has ways of answering a thread without really answering it. This is a perfect example. I love how he basically tells people like RDC that they don't know what they are talking about too.

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Chad Touchberry
Guest Doc Is Correct About Max Tension and Force. Thursday, November 20, 2003 10

What do you want me to answer? Your wrong.

You cant develop max tension at submax weight. You can't develop max tension at high rates of acceleration.

RDC and I see eye to eye on a few things....mainly he speaks illogically.

Chad

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Allen Bradley
Guest Doc Is Correct About Max Tension and Force. Thursday, November 20, 2003 10

No Chad, I am not wrong. You are basically stating that Steven Plisk, Doc and Louie Simmons are wrong. Let's see, I should believe you over them? Hmmm, tough choice.

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Chad Touchberry
Guest Doc Is Correct About Max Tension and Force. Thursday, November 20, 2003 11

Can you explain why YOUR right? Or havent you learned to think for yourself yet? Ohhhh you have read a few books and got some huskerpower info from Heath Church....I forgot.

Ok, so are you going to offer up any research, any physiological mechanisms (like I did below with the force time curve).

Chad

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Allen Bradley
Guest Doc Is Correct About Max Tension and Force. Friday, November 21, 2003 1

I can explain why I am right. Plisk states it in his article. Louie Simmons has stated that you can produce as much force with a 400 pound weight lifted explosively as you can with a 700 pound weight that is your max. Doc has also stated as much. So if we look at the F=mxa equation, if you are lifting a lighter mass but accelerating it as much as possible, is it not possible to produce as much force with 55% of max as you can with say 85% of max? Obviously you can accelerate that lighter mass much more than you can that heavier mass correct?

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Jeff Aichele
Guest Doc Is Correct About Max Tension and Force. Friday, November 21, 2003 1

Dude, he's saying you can't produce max tension with a light weight, and he's right. Force and tension are two different things.

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Carlo Buzzichelli
Guest Doc Is Correct About Max Tension and Force. Friday, November 21, 2003 5

I give you an example from a study of Memphis University presented at a NSCA conference

70% 1RM Peak Power

1151 W +/- 617 Force@PP

1215 N +/- 381

100% 1RM Peak Power

847 W +/- 372 Force@PP

1537 N +/- 371

So lighter weights translate into more Power but there is NO WAY that they translate into more Force, unless you compare two loads that have just a few digit of percentage of difference. Of course, the difference in Force is not so big if we think of the difference in load, YET is not higher for the lighter load, it cannot be.

This is the reason why speed-strength adaptations are so specific in the force/time curve (i.e. not much Max Strength increase), whereas an increase in max strength can improve the numbers of the whole curve (is a bit more complicate than this but I put it simple).

Hope this helps.

Best, Carlo Buzzichelli

Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield

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