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Growth after calorie/protein deficit
I was wondering if a person does not get enough protein and carbs while training if there is bio feedback that happens making muscle synthesis more efficient. after the deficit is over and one eats correctly the muscle growth rebounds and grows better then normaly.
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I highly doubt it. In fact,
I highly doubt it. In fact, I believe the opposite would be true.
The simple reason being is that putting yourself into a calorie deficit, even a slight deficit, is a lean towards putting yourself into a catabolic state also known as starvation mode. The result is a decreased metabolism and the list goes on. Your body will be trying to hold onto the weight and gain more, but that weight will be fat.
The good point I can tell you though is that if you don't put yourself in a calorie deficit you won't have such a problem. I can give a good example as to something that happened to me. Lat year I dieted and lost 20 lbs. This year I stuck with the same diet, which was quite low in calories, but I eventually stopped getting leaner, or at least I was having trouble. Once I tried increasing calories a bit and making my eating style more balanced, I ended up becoming more energetic and started to lose fat again.
The previous problem was that I wasn't eating enough calories, which caused my metabolism to be reasonably low. Once I increased the calories and added some good fats to some of my meals, the problem was fixed. My metabolism increased back to a respectable rate and the fat was able to come off again.
You might wonder how in the world that problem was fixed if I was losing weight. Because the fact is that I must have been in a calorie deficit in order to lose weight. I actually wonder about that as well. But I didn't actually lose a lot of weight, just a little bit which means I was probably only in a slight calorie deficit. As I understand it, a slight calorie deficit such as 100-200 calories per day in many circumstances is not enough of a deficit for your body to really notice the difference. It's enough to allow a little bit of fat to burn off, but not enough to cause a problem. A greater calorie deficit such as 500 calories or more per day for an extended period of time is where you get into trouble.
I guess that's all I have to say about that. The solution is never to restrict yourself. One might wonder how in the world can you do that if you have to eat more to grow and eat less to lose fat. The key is slow progression when it comes to making differences in body fat and muscle. I have seen successful cases where someone lifts heavy all the time and they become very strong, but the muscle comes slowly as they stay lean. You can try to rush strength gains if you want, providing you don't try to stuff yourself in order to rely on increased muscle mass in order to get there. That is the wrong road to take. Get stronger by skill, and allow the muscle to come slowly as a result. You will be leaner in the long run.
My appologies, I wrote it
My appologies, I wrote it wrong. AFter a calorie deficit or fasting for an extended period of time while B type training, THEN ADD a normal to above normal calorie/protein diet. I am thinking more muscle growth will happen. Just as fasting and having that first glass of sugared beverage increases speed and pleasure I thought perhaps amino acid uptake and use would be better. I have read about Asian kids who's families never ate enough meat and food that moved to the USA and their kids were huge after eating our diets(not just fat.)
I realise this is a tough question and perhaps I will get the fasting book by pasquele that Todd W. told me about.
I highly doubt those stories
I highly doubt those stories about Asian kids are accurate. You are talking about growing children anyways. A lot of the people I met from Chinese are way too skinny anyways compared to what I think is healthy, probably because they just don't eat enough meat. Once they switch to a diet that has more meat in it such as the typical American diet, especially growing children, it only seems logical that they would become more healthy muscle wise and grow bigger muscles. But there is no reason to think that they would grow muscles larger than normal. They would just grow to a healthy size.
On the contrary it is different for fully grown adults. One of my best friends is from Pakistan where they simply don't have the luxury as we do to have access to all sorts of junk food and candy. Even if they have money, good candy is hard to come by there. Anyways, he gained about 30 lbs his first few years living hear and struggled having that extra weight for years.
Anyways, I would not be looking for short cuts when it comes to weight gain. And the main reason being is that it is awfully hard to do that without adding extra fat. Then you have to back track by cutting in order to lose the fat, and often hard earned muscle comes off along with it. You will be much better off gaining muscle slowly over time as a result of strength gain. Doing it that way and the weight will be more quality, without all the extra fat. And you won't have to waist time back tracking.
Just think, it shouldn't matter for example if it takes you twice as long to put on the muscle, so long as you do it right. Because if you did it the bulk in cut way you end up in the same place in the end, except it is much harder to get the fat off. In the long run, the long way works better, and you get to enjoy being lean during the entire process, instead of being fat sometimes and leaner at other times.
Yeah, I agree. I believe in
Yeah, I agree. The story I read seemed unbelievable considering dna changes isn't passed on unless there is a point mutation in the seed/egg. About fasting I believe in one day/week fasting but not much more. In the past I was always on the go and 60% of the time drank plenty of liquids but never ate enough. After a few years of this a heavy crash landing came. Then after a 1200 calorie/day diet I gained huge amounts of muscle and fat. I was afraid if I had 100% or above normal calories that I would really balloon but the opposite has happened once I upped everything to the proper ratio. My guess is my body was in starvation mode saving all calories in the form of glucogen and fat. Once I got enough calories it stopped the storage of fat. I take the safe road now, but alot of the calorie deficit was due to the fact I had no hunger. I still may look into safe fasting because doing it correctly has a good effect on the body and health of a person
People from other countries can have problems in America. One must have control over the pleasures of America and not overdo them. I never ate alot as a kid but remember many days eating 3-4 candy bars untill I got so sick of them now I only eat one maybe every 2 months, and I get the good Swiss made chocolate that has some health benefits and is not made with corn sweetner. So many other Americans eat nothing but garbage and only get exericse as they walk to and from the car.
That's an interesting story.
That's an interesting story. It seems something similar happened to you that happened to me. The thing is that your body can burn more calories when you consume more calories. As for the rest, I suppose it's just from switching to a more healthy eating style that does you good.
As for your comments on foreigners coming to the USA, there definitely is something to be said about that. The fact is that most foods in natural form have a low calorie density and since they are high in fiber they digest more slowly, so you don't get sugar crashes. Processed food is often much higher in calories, it also has the fiber removed so it digests faster and you get a sugar crash and get hungry again. With natural foods low in calories you can literally stuff yourself and you won't overeat. But with the foods we have here in the USA, you can overeat without even trying.
As for your ideas on fasting, I don't know much about it. Based on the eating style I have been trying, it seems fasting might be counterproductive, even if only done for a day. On the other hand I do know someone who does it from time to time and it does work for him. What he does is if he finds his weight creeping up on him he'll try to fast for as little as a day or two per week until he gets back to his desired weight. We all know that fasting makes you want to eat more. He said the way around that is you just have to have self control when you finally go back to eating again. So for example, you wouldn't go back and have a huge meal because even if you ate more the extra calories would just go to fat anyways. So what you would do is eat the same size meal as you normally would.
The other thing that made me theorize as to if fasting would work is the fact that when I first started eating good foods I would often feel so full that I literally had trouble eating for the rest of the day. My theory is based on the fact that if you reduce calories severely for an extended period of time such as months or more, the long term results are that you will always end up bingeing and getting fatter than you were to begin with. This is true. It is always the case. But my idea is that there isn't anything within that statement that says what would happen if you reduced calories severely for a short period of time such as a day. I only figure that if you have been eating for example six balanced meals per day and your metabolism is running sky high, one day of fasting isn't going to be enough to put your metabolism in the dirt. It isn't going to be a long enough time.
The other thing is that I have a friend who tried this system called isagenix, and it worked. He had a little bit of fat on his body, not too much, and within weeks it was all gone. And it worked for many other folks as well. It made fat folks lose lots of weight. It's one of those pyramid scams. What it is though is that they tell you that you need to take their shakes and exercise as little as 20 minutes per day, even walking is fine, and you have to fast one day per week or something like that. We only wondered if perhaps the only reason why it worked is because of the fasting, and that they were getting people to believe in the product as a placebo.
So you could say I have thought about trying fasting once per week for a little while as an experiment. But I am kind of afraid because what I am doing right now is working so well. I am enjoying my meals and maintaining weight without a problem. And I certainly don't want to risk messing that up. I'm on a good roll. But perhaps something like that might work better during a time when I am working harder. But I don't know. Maybe it will back fire on me.
Yeah, if things are working
Yeah, if things are working for you that's excellent. I think one day a week fasting (with plenty of water) couldn't hurt. One must think about the protein loss so one would do it on a day off not after an A day. There's much info. on the Net. about fasting but Todd's recomendation of Poloquin's book seems like the answer. I've heard about him from many sources since the early 90's and he has some books I want to get. Poloquin, Yuri Verkoshansky's book SUPERTRAINING, and I have most of Hatfield's books that were mainstream for weight training.
I'll look up isogenix, and if it isn't the ketogenic diet I will get more info. on it. Thanks.
What about bodybuilders
What about bodybuilders coming off a dieting cycle for a contest? They all talk about the "rebound" from dieting.
Willis Lewis, Jr.
"The man that dreams success is already successful"
That's the thing that makes
That's the thing that makes me a little leery about even fasting for a singular day. When I talked to Clarence Bass he told me that there is no reason why you should ever have to feel hungry. He said he never skips a single meal. He has also been known to say that for every period of deprivation there is an equal and opposite binge waiting around the corner. I think that should be enough incentive just to at least get a hint that you shouldn't do such things.
When I look at my own progress doing the things that Clarence taught me, it really seems like it is way too easy to lose weight if I want to. I don't count calories at all. What I do instead is keep my meals balanced, eat slowly until I feel full, and then stop. My body tells me for the most part when I need more or not. That's generally enough to maintain weight. Then if I want to lose weight all I have to do is cut a few things out. This can be as little as spreading peanut butter on bread thinner or subtracting a piece of bread out of one of my meals.
That's actually working. You figure if you eat six meals per day it really gives you a lot of room to subtract a few things here and there out of one or more of your meals enough to add up to enough calories to make a difference. It can even be as little as 200 calories total per day. And when you do it that way, even if one of your meals is small you know you still have another one waiting around the corner a few hours later.
So I guess the way I see it is that if what I'm doing is already working, why take the risk of messing it up? There certainly is a temptation of trying to do some sort of trick to make things go faster. But the reality is that the results really do add up over the year once you put the numbers together, and you can realize that rushing things isn't necessary if you know what you're doing.
I still must say though that I'm not as good doing things as Clarence is. When I try to cut calories I always end up losing a few lbs per week, which is too fast. But I have heard of Clarence calculating to lose one lb per month, and doing it.
Yeah, balance is the key
Yeah, balance is the key with proper foods. I counted calories to some extent untill I got a good idea what to eat and how much. If people have a binge after fasting perhaps it is not good but I assume if it is the proper foods it is not as terrible as someone gobbling down cheesecakes. I'll keep that in mind as I explore fasting. I naturally fast one day a week (no hunger) but continue to drink 0 sugar drinks to keep fluids in the body.
Right, no hunger, that's the
Right, no hunger, that's the idea I was thinking about. Sometimes that happens to me on the weekends and I'll go several hours without eating. And it doesn't bother me at all. I think that's due to a few factors. The first and biggest factor is the fact that you have been eating good meals regularly and so your body is not in starvation mode. The second factor that could be a biggie is if you know how to pay attention to how hungry you "really" are. More often than not, people get fat simply because they eat beyond the point of being full. And its so easy to do that if you don't pay attention to your body's natural ability to tell when you are hungry or not. Eat too fast and in a panic and you will eat too much before your body has a chance to know that it is full.
Anyways, I did think of a simpler solution. If you aren't hungry on certain days, well I guess that simply means that you don't need as much food as you have been consuming. The solution might be that when you realize that you are having such days, continue to eat all your meals if you can on that day. But cut back on calories slightly. Cut a few things out here and there from your meals. That way you don't have to resort to skipping meals.
Also, as I was taught, it actually is better to match calories every day. The reason being is that it makes it so much easier to keep track of things. If you have some days where you do hard workouts, you can always make up for calories being burned in some other way on different days. Walking is a great example.
I guess the main idea I'm getting at is that since cutting calories slightly is so easy to do, perhaps there wouldn't be a point in fasting. Additionally if eating six meals per day helps keep your metabolism high then perhaps that is the best thing to do. After all, if your metabolism is slow from hard dieting, you won't be able to burn the fat away no matter what you do. When catabolic hormones are high there really isn't much you can do to get around it for a long time. It's best just to do the right thing and keep your body as far away from catabolism as possible. My experience confirms that.
I know what you mean I
I know what you mean I sometimes wonder on my non-hunger days if I should have a protein shake or some protein bars but I just cant force myself to eat even to keep from catabolism. Since it's only one day a week I just go with the non hunger and drink a gallon of water. Perhaps I could take some BCAA's with the water. Once in a while I will eat 3 12 gram/protein yogurts. If I workout I get the hunger on that day, so conveniently I fast on my day off and usually after a light previous day's workout. I wonder how much muscle mass I lose a year?
Perhaps you gain mass
Perhaps you gain mass sometimes and you lose mass other times. It's no big deal.
But what you said reminded me of a conversation I had the other day with an old friend. I explained to him how in addition to eating good foods like I already have, I have also learned how to change my eating patterns as well. What I am refering to is how I pay attention to what I'm eating so that I never eat beyond the point of being full, and its working. He asked me, "it took you that long to figure that out?" (Keep in mind I'm 32 years old!)
Let me fill you in. My friend has always worked out hard in younger years and so he has always been strong. But he never overate. He always ate what he wanted, let that be pizza or candy. And he never got fat. He's always had a body like a model. One might assume that this guy just has outstanding genetics, and I'm not going to rule that out, but knowing him for years now I know that his actual eating patterns are unique.
What I can remember of my friend is that he never overate, ever. He would eat what he wanted and he would always stop when he was full. He always worked out, but he never bought into the idea that you had to eat like a pig in order to have muscles. It's no wonder why he ended up being in great shape over the years. He lifted enough to be strong, so he gained muscles, but he never ate enough to get fat and so he wasn't.
It also goes right along with what another friend of mine does. He's never been into weights or anything like that. He's always been naturally skinny. I can remember when we were children and he had a picnic basket full of candy, and he never ate it. I always used to wish I could have that much candy, but my father would never let me have it. Anyways, this friend never ate too much either. He never had a need to. He could eat what ever he wanted. Unlike many families his parents never made him finish his plate. If he wanted he could throw the food out. He never lifted weights so there was no need to worry about losing muscle mass or anything stupid like that. So he always ate what he wanted, which wasn't much, and that's it. I can always remember him leaving food on his plate. And he was naturally skinny all his life.
So if you see what I'm getting at, fat people always have some sort of excuse to overeat. They have problems with their eating patterns. They don't listen to their bodies. Instead they are listening to their grandparents telling them to finish their plate or the bodybuilding idea that you will lose muscle, or worried about wasting money eating out if they don't finish it all. Since such people are used to overeating and they don't know how to pay attention to how hungry they really are, when they think of dieting its all about deprivation, and all they can think about is eating a whole pizza, ice cream, and cake. Because to them, they think eating what they want means eating everything in sight, especially junk food. But if they actually tried listening to their bodies they would realize that they really aren't as hungry as they think, unless perhaps they previously went on a starvation diet.
But naturally skinny and/or lean folks listen to their body. That is what I have learned over the years. Your body can tell you more than any book or exercise scientist, if you actually listen. Many will disagree with me. But that is what I learned for and believe in myself. Just think about all the methods there are to calculate your daily calorie intake. They aren't very accurate and they can't be. Change your activities significantly and you will change your caloric needs significantly as well. If I just sit around the house and do nothing, I can get away with 1500 calories per day, without a problem! If I'm real busy or active I can get away with 3000. Years ago when I did construction work I probably got away with many more calories and I weighed 30 lbs less.
So I don't think there is anything wrong or harmful with what you are doing. There certainly is a big difference between fasting because you simply aren't hungry and actually forcing a fast even though you are hungry and your stomach is screaming at you for food. If you're hungry, eat. If not, then don't force it.
Yeah, I figure once a week
Yeah, I figure once a week fasting isn't too terrible. Yesterday was one day I didn't want to eat but I forced myself and it about came back up. I had a good thin body until age 28 then ballooned at the midsection. I still didn't eat much but my metabolism went from a 10 to a 5. I know I can lose it and got Dr. Squat's Anaerobic supplement with Siberian Ginsing that helps alot. It works so well I do not seem to need many carbs or caffeine to feel energetic.
1500 Calories is about the max what I used to get. Since I didn;t have much of an apetite I took protein powders and MRD's to get the right balance. It works and is more affordable then a steak.
Yeah, I figure once a week
Yeah, I figure once a week fasting isn't too terrible. Yesterday was one day I didn't want to eat but I forced myself and it about came back up. I had a good thin body until age 28 then ballooned at the midsection. I still didn't eat much but my metabolism went from a 10 to a 5. I know I can lose it and got Dr. Squat's Anaerobic supplement with Siberian Ginsing that helps alot. It works so well I do not seem to need many carbs or caffeine to feel energetic.
1500 Calories is about the max what I used to get. Since I didn;t have much of an apetite I took protein powders and MRD's to get the right balance. It works and is more affordable then a steak.
Does that anaerobic
Does that anaerobic supplement make you feel good or no? Because I absolutely hate caffeine, mainly the way it makes me feel. I only take it because it wakes me up in the morning and for a workout. But if I could find something else that does the same thing without making me feel like crap, I'd try it.
I also don't think your ballooning has anything to do with age. Many people buy into that and it causes them to allow excuses to get fatter. But other than natural muscle loss, as I understand it, there really is no other reason for a slowing of metabolism along with age. And if you lift weights regularly, you won't have that problem.
Think about it this way. When you are younger it seems you might have trouble gaining weight providing you are active. I don't know about you or most other people, but I'm definitely a lot less active now than when I was younger. When we get older we can do things to stay active, but nobody plays sports as much as they did when they were younger. I used to love playing sports out in the fields with my friends. Now I'm limited to walking and a few exercise sessions per week. Additionally, it really is easy to gain as little as one lb per year, and most people do that when they get older. One lb per year adds up and by the time you are 30 you have a big belly and don't know what to do. Next thing you know you are blaming it on age. But it is not specifically from your age. Its simply from accumulation over the years.
I'm convinced that if you work towards progression year after year you won't have such a problem. I have to believe it's true because I have shown improvements over the last few years. My weight did creep up into my later 20's. And from then all the way until I was 30 my weight fluctuated. Now I finally think I got a good hang of things and am working towards progress. I maintain weight for the most part, but if I want to lose a lb or so I know how to do it in a week effortlessly. That is why I am convinced I can and will do better.
When I first started lifting weights I was only 115 lbs at about 14-15 years of age. I was very active and in such good shape that I could do 70 strict pushups in a singular set. That was years before I found out that you had to be a glutton in order to get some muscles, if you get my drift. Once I learned that I turned into a fat blob. It just goes to show that a lot of common knowledge that is accepted in the bodybuilding community is just flat out wrong. It just makes me think, if I actually knew how to eat right back then and made lifting to be what it should be about, being in good shape and not being a fat slob, I would have been in much better shape over the years.
It's funny, my one friend who didn't care about what he ate, he didn't read anything about working out ever, all he did was lift, and it worked. It's amazing at how much worse a person can do the more they learn. I once read parts of Arthur Saxon's (he was one of the strongest men in the world about 100 years ago) books, and I recall him saying that it only seemed sensible that if you wanted to get strong you should practice with heavy weights and do less reps. It worked for him. The answer was so simple to him back then before there was all this new common knowledge. But people these days don't get that. Some how they think it is more complicated than that. I don't think so. And today's days with all the drug use, it's even easier than it was before. Now days guys who don't know what they are doing and usually don't train hard, they can take some steroids and work hard for a few months, and gain 30 lbs no matter what their program is like. It's true. I've seen guys do it.
Anaerobic power feels like
Anaerobic power feels like my natural adrenaline works more. At least it does to me. I think I also feel more mentally clear and energetic. I skip my coffee and eat a low carb protein shake on days I take it because it seems like I do not need the extra boost. The first time I took it I felt a natural high that motivated me in a way I was not stressed. I think it would be good for people with stress and anxiety because usually I do not have any when I take it.
Honestly I liked all Doc's products. His meal replacement powder tasted top notch. It doesn't have cheap chocolate masked by lots of sweetner/sugar. I even took his sample pack on a fast day when I never eat. I think he has the complete formula of nutrition and protein products for anyone who wants to do their best like a pro. I guess it makes sense considering he wrote books about natural sports enchancers and studied in Moscow what the Soviet Super athletes took. That was probably a big deal back in the 80's because many didn't know why they won so much. I think it was mostly they didn't overtrain with periodization and they focused their whole life on that particular sport. That's just what I heard, true or not.
Yeah, weight gain was normal for me once I reached age 28 but it didn't sneak up on me. I gained 60 pounds in 8 months. I think alot of the crash that caused me to gain was going to extreme at the gym and not eating enough carbs. I was also working 90 hour weeks for 6 months strait contracting.
I got my diet, training, and attitude all together now and am ready to get rid of this belly and grow some more muscle and increase my strength. I want to do a natural bodybuilding show next summer and I've heard from many old pros gains can be good through the 40's. If I do not gain enough to do a show I will seek HRT, because obviously I need it. HAHA
I'm just curious if you
I'm just curious if you gained any muscle during that time period?
Other than that I can definitely see why you gained so much weight (probably a good percentage being fat), even if you gained muscle or lost it. It was the summation of stress from everything you were doing. 90 hours per week is probably way too much, stresses you out, and doesn't give you enough time to prepare meals. Too much work in the gym can also increase stress hormones which will also increase appetite. And not eating enough carbs will definitely cause problems eventually, especially if you are working hard in the gym. Carbohydrates are the body's preferred source of energy, which is probably why a lack of carbs can cause problems in the long run for hard working athletes. I had to learn that one the hard way.
I lost alot of muscle. It
I lost alot of muscle. It was rediculous but my training wasn't that serious and I made $30/hour doing those 90/hour weeks. I stopped eating correctly and training untill I was hospitalized with job burnout. I'm happy to say I can gain more muscle now with periodization and keep it off with proper diet and zigzag. I was in my prime then, but now I am more wise. I just need a few tweaks of fine tuning and some more cash for supps to get in the best condition of my life. Yeah, my stress hormones were really high to the point I needed something to calm them. I slowed down now and really do not take anything but vitamins but the doctors said I was manic after working that hard and they wanted me on hard core meds. I settled for some anti anxiety pills that gained me 130 pounds over the years. I don't know, I think most modern doctors are lazy and do not know what had to be done to build this country in the past and present. They think everyone should be a certain way for a certain norm and being jolly, active, and work hard/party hard they do not like. It's all behind me, I try to eat correctly and train moderately. Doing HIT style workouts everytime just hurts my nerves and left me burned out every 6-8 months.
Periodization and zig zag. It's simple and makes sense. I got my best lifts ahead of me.