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Are any MuscleMags worth the effort anymore?
Ok, occasionally I do still get the urge to read through a muscle mag. Picked up a current issue of Muscular Development which used to be somewhat dependable - what a piece of junk! Outside of PL USA, are any of the current crop worth an occasional splurge? I've totally given up on the Weider publications since Joe sold them off, Robert Kennedy just totally bums me out when I look at some of my back issues of Muscle Mag International from decades ago (Gironda and Grimek had regular columns!) and compare them against the trashy rag that now bears his name. Hoping that one of the regulars here might have a line on a mag that's worth a look, or - gasp, maybe even a subscription.
Thanks and Good Lifting!
Vaughn
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Good luck Vaughn. I even
Good luck Vaughn. I even stopped subscribing to PLUSA after over 13 years. However, I do miss the top 100. I will read t-nation and browse a few message boards but there aren't much new information out there one you collect a few good books. The internet was the downfall for print media. They did not know how to evolve.
Willis Lewis, Jr.
"The man that dreams success is already successful"
Muacular Development has some good informtion.
Vaughn,
Muscular Development usually has some good information in it each month. The "Research" sections of the magazine provide summaries of information on training, nutrtion, anabolics, etc.
The information in the "Research" summaries comes from a host of scientific journals. Here's an example: http://www.musculardevelopment.com/articles/training/2230-md-training-re...
Occassionally, they have a good article.
I read them at Walmart and then do my shopping. I don't value them enough to actually buy them.
The muscle magazine weren't really any better under Joe Weider's regime. Weider was the King of Hype.
Testosterone online magazine usually has some good articles, as Willis noted.
Many of the scientific jounals on nutrition and training provide some great information. But they are a bit harder to find.
Kenny Croxdale
I guarantee it will never work if you never try it.
Checkout Mark Bell's power
Checkout Mark Bell's power magazine. He gets top-level powerlifters, strongmen competitors, etc to write articles for it. It's not this crap that's written by some geek that took a lot of classes but has never been under the bar.
Let's face it, guys like Dr Squat are rare. Not many people have a PhD and countless hours spent in the gym and competing at a world class level.
www.wildirongym.com
www.tinyurl.com/WildIron
MILO may be of interest to
MILO may be of interest to some. And I like to read the Bill Starr acticles in Iron Man. That's about all I can think of.
On the other side of that,
On the other side of that, marcus, is that most people who are even at elite levels in strength sports have no idea why what they do works, they just know it does. As a consequence of that, they have no idea of what they are doing is optimal. In other words, they don't know the science so they don't know if they could be doing something better.
I can say from being on both the training and academic sides that most of the people doing research on actual training methods have in fact been under a bar. I know many of them. Have they trained at a world class level? No. But there can only be so many of those guys. As Packers GM Ted Thompson says about why he values linemen so much: "God only created so many of them".
Now, the people who do a lot of the more medical based research on injuries, finite element modeling, endocrinology based research (even with training), etc. have mostly never been under a bar. Certainly many exercise physiologists who focus on running economy and such have never been under a bar. But they stick to what they know - ie: they don't know training so they don't research it.
Brian Wallace's Points.
Marcus,
The irony is the information posted on Bell's site is based on information from Simmons. Simmons' training information comes from books by some of what you might term "geeks".
Supertraining by Dr Mel Siff and Yuri Verkhoshanski.
Science and Practice of Strength Training,
Vladimir Zatsiorsky
Secrets of Soviet Sports Fitness and Training, Dr Michael Yessis.
As Brian Wallace pointed out in his post, "most of the people doing research on actual training methods have in fact been under a bar." However, most of the people who did the research were not elite athletes.
The majority of naturally gifed elite athletes make poor coaches. It something that comes naturally to them, they don't have to think about it and break it down.
Great coaches are usually good "players" who move up by being able to analyze and break information down. Even Louie Simmons has stated that he's a better coach than a lifter.
While Simmons has some ability, he's moved ahead with analysis.
There are exceptions to the rule. As you noted, "guys like Dr Squat are rare."
As Brian Wallace point out, "most people who are even at elite levels in strength sports have no idea why what they do works, they just know it does. ...they don't know the science so they don't know if they could be doing something better."
That is one of he biggest problems with elite athletes. They rarely read anything let alone research articles.
Quite bluntly, I suspect that any book they do read has more pictures than words. One of the moderators at bodybuilding.com could be the poster child of that statement. A very nice guy who only know what is handed down to him.
What you is a "geek" who has "played the game".
Kenny Croxdale
I guarantee it will never work if you never try it.
The last magazine I bought
The last magazine I bought was Muscle Media. It touted Creatine and glutamine before others and had new training routines I never heard of like Negatives, super slow, and different times of rest periods between sets. I think I just stick to a good GBC periodization and zig zag diet now. I have not really heard of a good mag I like now but I go to Doc's site and Dave Draper's site www.davedraper.com and buy some products and ask/answer questions. I think websites are much better then the mags but do not have fitness model women.
"Muscle Magazines" dumb things down
Doug,
Muscle Media provided some good information back when Bill Phillips owned it. Muscle Media was "hands off" for those who wrote the articles. In other words, Phillips didn't edit out anything that was written, to my knowledge.
As an example, Dan Duchaine once criticized Muscle Media in one of his article.
Once Phillips sold Muscle Media it spiraled down, crashed and burned. Muscle Media became expensive tolit paper. There was nothing worth reading.
Testosterone Magazine (t-mag.com) is the spin off of Muscle Media. Willis mentioned Testosterone Magazine in his post.
"Muscle Magazines" at time can provide some good information. However, "Muscle Magazines" dumb things down. As I have noted, I scan and read through them at Walmart before doing my shopping.
The "Muscle Magazines" provide a ton of pictures. Which illustrates my point that the majority of book athletes read have more pictures than words.
The stastics on reading are deplorable.
"1/3 of high school graduates never read another book for the rest of their lives.
42 percent of college graduates never read another book after college." (Source: Jerold Jenkins, www.JenkinsGroupInc.com)
Athletes read even less that the numbers stated above.
The irony is that most athletes are very dedicated and obsessive about improving "their game".
However, they won't MAKE time to research and study the science to make those improvements, as Brian Wallace stated.
Kenny Croxdale
I guarantee it will never work if you never try it.
I've never subscribed, but I
I've never subscribed, but I flip through most of them anyway, just because.
The only I ever read a few articles in ever is Ironman. I really like Jerry Brainum's writings, Poliquin has a column, and they usually have an article by one of my favorite strength writers, Bill Starr. That usually only amounts to 5 minutes of reading total, but still, it's something. Can't remember the last time I bought one, subscribing would seem silly.
As Brian Wallace pointed out
As Brian Wallace pointed out in his post, "most of the people doing research on actual training methods have in fact been under a bar." However, most of the people who did the research were not elite athletes.
The majority of naturally gifed elite athletes make poor coaches. It something that comes naturally to them, they don't have to think about it and break it down.
Great coaches are usually good "players" who move up by being able to analyze and break information down. Even Louie Simmons has stated that he's a better coach than a lifter.
While Simmons has some ability, he's moved ahead with analysis.
There are exceptions to the rule. As you noted, "guys like Dr Squat are rare."
As Brian Wallace point out, "most people who are even at elite levels in strength sports have no idea why what they do works, they just know it does. ...they don't know the science so they don't know if they could be doing something better."
That is one of he biggest problems with elite athletes. They rarely read anything let alone research articles.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Kenny,
It's strange how I was just telling someone else this same thing. But, I do have a PhD in economics so I our minds tend to think the same. Stupid scientific method.
Like Doc, I follow the science. If you can't tell me why it works then I have a problem following you. That's what attracted me to Doc's site some 15 years ago. And this one is the only one that I still visit. It's cool to hear what the elites are doing but they rarely can teach drug-free athletes anything about getting stronger, recovery, nutrition, or rehab. It's Louie said this so it's got to work. Or, do box squats and they will fix everything.
But, to be fair, you have to listen to these guys if you want to learn the gear. i doubt if we will ever get any scientific studies on efficient use or the efficacy of power gear.
Since I still do not know how to get the most out of a bench shirt, time for me to put down Poliquin's book and pop in my Metal Militia DVD.
Willis Lewis, Jr.
"The man that dreams success is already successful"
Learning From Successful Athletes.
Willis,
Like you, I want to see the science. I want to see the resources quoted at the bottom of an article. In discussing information I try to provide resources and I ask for them.
With that said, there are times when science works backward. Sometimes anecdotal evidence demonstrates something works.
When that happens we accept it and then work backward trying to find out why. That is where observing and talking to successful and unsuccessful athlets comes into play.
You learn what works from the successful athletes.
You learn what does NOT work from the unsuccessful athletes.
In other words, do what successful people do and avoid doing what unsuccessful people do. That what Steven Covey's "7 Habits of Highly Effective People" and other book, research articles, etc is all about. That is what science is about.
With that thought in mind, you can we can learn from elite athletes. By doing so, we sub-eltict athletes can utilize some of the same training methods and techniques to become better athletes.
Bench Press More Now/Dr Tom McLaughlin's book is a book that does just that. McLaughlin examined elite world class bench pressers and intermediate/novice lifter over time.
McLaughlin found common demoninators in what great benchers do. McLaughlin also found common demoninators in what intermediate/novice benchers did wrong.
I have posted information on this site regarding McLaughlin's findings. $20 plus shipping will get you the book from Ricky Crain at Crainsmuscleworld.com
A "geek" like you, Willis, that spends time under the bar will enjoy the book.
There isn't "any scientific studies on efficient use or the efficacy of power gear" because there is NO money in powerlifting or powerlifting gear. You/we are in the wrong sport for that.
There is money in golf. Which means there is research on golf clubs and balls.
Kenny Croxdale
I guarantee it will never work if you never try it.
The fastest way to be
The fastest way to be successful is to do what successful people do... That my reply at the start of the semester to the dreaded "what do I need to do to pass your course" question. Kenny, we have a lot of the same books. McLaughlin book is really good (bought it the first time you mentioned it). I even have a few of Covey's books. What are some of the latest books (regardless of topic) you have read?
A geek like me? It took me a while to realize how much of a nerd I am. Actually my son pointed it out when he said that I was a blend of the characters on Big Bang Theory. Funny thing is that I was jock/grease monkey in high school. Constantly got in trouble with the law. Plus, I always dated some of the hottest chicks around. Then, my son was born and I changed everything. Funny how life (God) leads us.
Willis Lewis, Jr.
"The man that dreams success is already successful"
Thanks for the input, think part of my question got lost though.
Thanks for all the posts! I will definitely have to check out a current issue of IronMan, I do think I remember that being a good read as well but it's been a while since I've checked one out. I don't generally read Muscle Mags looking for scientific content, I've got a couple of college libraries near by and some of the previously mentioned reference books, along with the Rippetoe stuff, on my reference shelf and lets face it, there are only so many ways to do a biceps curl!
What I miss is the training insight from some of the 'greats', who I admit are getting fewer as time goes by, and the gossip which MuscleMag in particular used to be very good at providing. Read some of the old articles by John Grimek or Vince Gironda though, and then compare them against the drivel that is being printed today and tell me things haven't changed for the worse. Don't remember the name of the loser who writes for Muscular Development but he went on and on for pages of mindless ramblings - couldn't even stomach it after the first couple of paragraphs but had to keep flipping pages just to see how long he went on for and it was pages full. Never mind that now it's not at all clear where the articles begin and the advertisements end ( and the advertisements are not even as much fun, thinking back on Arnolds courses or Mike Christians old Crazee Wear adds as examples. ) At least the Weider mags when Joe was running the show were entertaining and had some decent content once you stripped the "Weider blah blah blah principle" off of the front of every training technique discussed.
Oh well, enough whining. Will check out Iron Man and Milo while re-reading "Muscle Wars" and "Muscle Beach Memories" and remembering the "Good Old Days."
----------------------------------------------------
This isn't happening, it only thinks it's happening.
Also, Ironman is as close to
Also, Ironman is as close to what the old mags were like. It will have the latest biceps blitz program that supersets Preacher curls and preacher curls with a pulley as well as HIT articles. Not all to be endorsed or used, but info from most facets of the industry. Again, though, I still can't bring myself to subscribe.
I agree, my relative was
I agree, my relative was commenting on modern school text books showing their is more pictures. Maps, graphs, I can understand. I do think some good female models makes a guy work harder. It's motivation.
Even More Greats Today.
Vaughn,
Statements like "the greats are getting fewer and fewer" make my head spin around my neck as I apeak in "tongues".
The reality is that there are just as many and even more "great" alive right now providing us with even better scientific and anecdotal data on training, nutrition, recovery, etc.
The foundation of today's greats is build on those like Gironda, Grimek, etc.
Weider's magazines content was no better back in the "old days" that it is today. Weider pioneered the infusion of advertising inside the article.
There was drivel back in the old magazines, just as much, if not moreso than today.
There were good articles in the magainze of the "old days" and there are good articles in today's magazines.
There was also drivel articles in magazines from the "old days" as there are today.
Finding good information in the muscle mags (anywhere) is a lot like the saying about having to kiss a lot of frog to find your prince/princess.
Kenny Croxdale
I guarantee it will never work if you never try it.
I think there's very few to
I think there's very few to powerlifters that were genetically gifted. Most of the top guys that'll be lifting at the pro-am have been competing for 10+ years. If they were genetically gifted, then they'd reach that status in much less time. That or they'd be playing a sport that pays millions instead of a sport you pay to compete in.
Any of the guys at that level know a ton about training. They've also likely been through a lot of training partners over the years. They'll have a good idea of what will work for you and what won't.
The idea that the top lifters can't teach a drug-free lifter about about getting stronger, recovery, nutrition, or rehab is honestly silly. I've learned a ton from those guys.
Besides, most studies are done on untrained people. That's a completely different ball game. Anything will cause improvement. The higher level of athlete you work with the more difficult it is to improve them. You get to where Improvement requires a new level of dedication and sacrifice. No study is going to teach you that. You're better off talking to people that have achieved what you want vs reading a study about a bunch of untrained people.
If I took a group of beginners and wanted to increase their squat as much as possible in 12 weeks, then I'd have them squatting multiple times a week. That'd get them to learn the mechanics faster, and their bodies could easily recover from it since the weights would be light. Now I can publish my study on how squatting 3 times a week increases someone's squat xy% faster than squatting once a week. Is that going to hold true for an elite lifter who's handling far more weight, needs more recovery, and already has good technique? They'd probably be overtrained within a couple of weeks using the same program with the same prescribed percentages.
I'll use an analogy from outside training. If I wanted to focus on becoming a millionaire, would I hire a financial advisor to help me or talk to people that actually are millionaires? If the financial advisor knows so much about it, then why isn't he a millionaire? I'll talk to the people that have done it. They'll offer me far more and better information about how to achieve my goals.
www.wildirongym.com
www.tinyurl.com/WildIron
Sorry, Kenny...
Guess we are just not going to agree on this one.
I used to have a collection of the old Muscle Mag Internationals ( never should have parted with them but have a friend, disabled Marine corps vet, who needed them more so passed them along ) and I could read those cover to cover. There is 'idle chatter' and there is 'Drivel' and I defy you to pick up the current issue of Muscular Development and tell me that the ramblings of the idiot I mentioned above (sorry, still don't recall his name) has any purpose at all. Now, my old issues were about 130 pages or so and the current ones are about 300 pages with maybe 100 pages of actual content. No objections to selling advertisements, that's what keeps them in business but don't try to sell me on all the 'new content' that today's mags have over yesterdays 'cause it ain't there. As far as their still being 'Greats' and my forcing you into a state of demonic possession with my comment, 'Yes, there are' but I don't think they have the ability to communicate as well as thier peers of yesterday, nor do I find their training advice as relevant to the average non-professional trainer. This is not a problem with strength sports, it's a problem with sports in general where the spin has become much more important than the content.
Anyway, still gonna try to check out an issue of Iron Man - this is for entertainment value, not enlightenment.
Good Lifting!
----------------------------------------------------
This isn't happening, it only thinks it's happening.
Marcus, How many are strong
Marcus,
How many are strong compared to how many knows how to use their gear better? How many can improve the strength of athletes outside of powerlifters? How many know what a Peterson Step-up or rope row to the neck is used for? I subscribed to PLUSA for over a decade and I do not recall any diet articles other than eat more to bulk or eat less to cut. I do give powerlifters credit in the fact that they seek different methods to improve. I can't say that for bodybuilders.
They can tell you what they did and what worked for them. Our point is that that method may not be the best method. Unless you have many years through trial and error with many athletes across many sports, you will never know.
A study with elite athletes only is just as biased as one with newbies.
Being genetically gifted is a totally different game. It could relate to areas. The lifters that come into the sport and total elite on their first few meets are gifted for strength development and are probably a mesomorph.
I like your analogy but then there are problems. Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Brett Favre, Gene Simmons, and other celebrities are millionaires but would you take their advice? They have done it but will their method work for you? Is their method the best method? I need to know what the research shows that works the majority of the time for the majority of the people. Again, the nerds did research to find the common trends and traits. The Millionaire Next Door summarizes the studies by William Danko and Tom Stanley that researched that issue. It's an excellent book that shows what average people can do to achieve wealth, not income. Napoleon Hill also has some great stuff regardless of how old they are. Financial advisors and investors know how to make money, not wealth.
Can you tell I read a lot? But, I lift a lot also. That is me in the avatar
Willis Lewis, Jr.
"The man that dreams success is already successful"
90% Of Life Is Crap, Muscle Mags Are NO Different.
Vaughn,
I have a collection of magazines that go back to 1965. That is my era.
If anyone leading the "Good Old Days of Muscle Magazine", it should be me. I should be the one talking about how much better MY generation was that the new generation...of magazine.
Complaining about how much worse everything is now compared to yessteryear is part of what humans do. Even Shakespear stated, "How sharper than a serpent's tooth it is. To have a thankless child!"
There WAS "idle chatter and there WAS Drivel in todays and YESTERYEARS magazine.
Muscular Develpment provide some good information each month. As I noted in my previous post.
Muscular Development usually has some good information in it each month. The "Research" sections of the magazine provide summaries of information on training, nutrtion, anabolics, etc.
The information in the "Research" summaries comes from a host of scientific journals. Here's an example: http://www.musculardevelopment.com/articles/training/2230-md-training-re...
So, it not all "Drivel". Just SKIP the "Drivel", as I do!
I agree that the majority of stuff in the magazines is "Drivel"...but so is what goes on in life!
Someone once told Gene Roddenberry (who created Star Trek) that 90% of what was on TV was crap. Roddenberry's reply was, "It reflective of life. 90% of what goes on in life is crap."
So, WHY would muscle mags be any different yesteryear or even today? As long as there are people, there will be crap.
Your relying on your memory of the "Good Old" days. You have NO mangazines to refer to.
You statement, "I don't think they have the ablilty to communicate as well as their peers of yeasterday..."
"I don't think" means you are guessing. Guessing is never a good idea.
The "spin" was part of Weider's formula. Everything was about the "Weider Principle". Weider was a master of the "spin". The foundation of todays magazines are build on the "Weider Principle" of marketing.
The majoriy of the "Weider Principle" were rip offs of someone else.
As an example, Hans Selye's General Adaptation Syndrome became Weider's "Muscle Confusion Principle".
I gotta say that "Muscle Confusion" has a much better ring to it. That why it's still floating around.
The "spin" been around forever. The "spin" is what SOLD products in the past, as well as the present.
The "spin" has been used by Politicans forever.
I spent an hour on Tuesday where a chiropractor was putting the "spin" on how Vibration Training Machines (that he just happens to sell) are the next wave in fitness.
Evidently, they can heal the sick and raise the dead.
Check out IronMan. As Todd noted, Jerry Brainum's articles are good. As you'd put it, enlightening.
And be sure and check out the "Research" sections in Muscular Development. The "Research" sections provide some good information that is "enlightening".
T-mag.com (as Willis stated) provides some good information.
Kenny Croxdale
I guarantee it will never work if you never try it.
Yes, all the multi-ply guys
Yes, all the multi-ply guys are weak. It's simply how they use the gear. Someone should really tell these guys that multi-ply lifting is making them weak.
Kroc deadlifts 640 x 6
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEmLCju_Xj4
Tony Bologne raw squats 735 with a cambered bar
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3iTOFsGnW4s
Greg Panora benches 545 raw (close grip)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKa1QYbh59U
Some Westside guys incline benching 400+ and some 500+ raw 3-bd
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iBlCgU6yurI
Travis Bell benches 525 raw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zaNYWaWBqOE
Hoss Cartwright squats 710x8 raw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NPfDHg-lQQg
Brian Carroll benches 495 x 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yEGP6_MtOXQ
Brian Schwab wins best lifter at a raw meet
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljRvZp54e6U
Frankl benching 545 raw before shirting up
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qc1fqypD0LQ
Those are just the videos that were easy to find, because I already knew about them. Don't forget every one of those guys trains with other elite or pro lifters. They know what it takes to get it done. There's a reason the vast majority of pro powerlifters come from proven powerlifting gyms. If that's weak, then sign me up.
www.wildirongym.com
www.tinyurl.com/WildIron
As I Said...
You and I are apparently not going to agree.
'65 was your era, '75 was mine. As far as 'Not having the magazines' to prove it, rather a cheap shot considering my statement that I did in fact have MuscleMags going back to the beginning days but passed them along to a friend - did you really feel the need to slap me with that? Are you sure you are a product of '65 and not '85?
To prevent further argument, I will concede your point here publicly. Muscle Magazines and their commentary have always been just as poor as they are today, they always contained 90% garbage and the spin was always just as evident in the past as today. Kenny is absolutely correct and I was foolish to even question his judgement and commentary. My opinion is wrong and I deeply apologize to Kenny and the other readers of this forum if I have lead them astray.
Most Regretfully Submitted, in deep repentence:
Vaughn Numrych
Connecticut, USA
----------------------------------------------------
This isn't happening, it only thinks it's happening.
Vaughn, I'd say that I am
Vaughn,
I'd say that I am more of a product of 1965 to today. I grew up with the 60 mags and kept moving on to the 70, 80, 90, etc.
Not only do I have the magazines, I extracted the good article from all of the magazines that I have from 1965 to today.
I have notebooks full of article listed in catagories. Hatfield even as his own notebook catagory of artiles.
I've cross reference article.
Approximately, 20% of the article that read in the muslce mags (everywhere) are in my notebooks.
That means 80% of what I read was drivel.
Which bring us back to kissing frogs..."You got to kiss a lot of frogs to find your Princess/Prince."
Finding good/great article is like paning for gold. You have to sift through a lot of rocks to find a few pieces of gold. However, it only take a few nugetts to make you rich.
The best place to find gold is in a gold mind. The gold in magazine article lies in who wrote it.
It worth reading (there is a gold of training information) if it is written by: Hatfield, Thibaudeau, Poliquin, Starr, Brainum, etc.
I'd say the same for some of those who post on this site: Todd Wilson, Brian Wallace, Marcus, Willis, you and some others.
My statement regarding your NOT having the magazines to prove it was not an intensional "slap in the fact" to you.
My statement was made to point out that you have no way to compare yesteryears mags to the present ones. You're banking on your memory...which is not the best thing to do.
Vaughn, you are a smart guy. I have no doubt about that. And since I am a blunt, insensitivy person...you know that I would state that if I didn't believe it.
It was nice that you gave you friend the magazines. However, next time load them out and get them back.
Unfortunately, I've loaded magazines, books and money out and never gotten them back. So, I NEVER load out anything I want to keep.
I now view any load as more of a gift that I will probably NEVER get back.
Kenny Croxdale
I guarantee it will never work if you never try it.
Are any muscle mags worth the effort anymore?
Fortunately for me, I found Mabel and Peary Rader's Ironman Mag shortly after I began lifting in 1977. Being quite impressed with his objectivity, I immediately not only subscribed, but also searched used book stores in the area for back issues. Once, I read an ad that was physically impossible, called Peary and in future issues it was correct. In my opinion, it was a sad day for weightlifting when, in 1986, ownership was transferred.
Bob Engleman
I am not saying that they
I am not saying that they are weak. I am saying that they are gifted lifters.
-------------------------------------------------------------------
"The lifters that come into the sport and total elite on their first few meets are gifted for strength development and are probably a mesomorph."
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Everyone you listed falls in the category I described. Croc just won a bodybuilding show in his first attempt in over a decade. Notice he consulted Shelby Starnes (the geek) for diet help.
My questions are as follows. How long have they been doing those same numbers? How many did not move up in weight class for a bigger number?
Not to mention, a couple of those guys have graduate degrees.
Willis Lewis, Jr.
"The man that dreams success is already successful"
Yes Vaughn we will never
Yes Vaughn we will never agree. This can be added to the following:
1. Which is best - geared or raw?
2. Which is best - powerlifting or bodybuilding?
3. Top lifters only lift so much because of the roids.
4. Box squats are the best form of squats.
5. Lifters today are not as strong as lifters of the past.
6. What is the best training method?
7. What is the best way to lose bodyfat?
8. Are aerobics worth it?
9. Are carbs bad?
...and the list goes on.
Willis Lewis, Jr.
"The man that dreams success is already successful"
Rader's IronMan was a great magazine.
Bob,
Your right, Mabel and Peary Rader's IronMan magazine was a great source of information for bodybuiling, powerlifting, and Olympic Lifting.
I met the Rader's at one of the National Powerlifting Championships. They were wonderful people.
IronMan certainly is not what it was. So, I am gonig to have eat some crow and state that Vaughn was right when it come to IronMan.
MuscleMedia 2000 at one time provided great information. Once Phillips sold it, MuscleMedia becaume what I termed "expensive tolit paper". That was about the only thing that "rag" was good for.
Kenny Croxdale
I guarantee it will never work if you never try it.
Rader's IronMan was a great magazine.
Bob,
Your right, Mabel and Peary Rader's IronMan magazine was a great source of information for bodybuiling, powerlifting, and Olympic Lifting.
I met the Rader's at one of the National Powerlifting Championships. They were wonderful people.
IronMan certainly is not what it was. So, I am gonig to have eat some crow and state that Vaughn was right when it come to IronMan.
MuscleMedia 2000 at one time provided great information. Once Phillips sold it, MuscleMedia becaume what I termed "expensive tolit paper". That was about the only thing that "rag" was good for.
Kenny Croxdale
I guarantee it will never work if you never try it.
Rader's IronMan was a great magazine.
Bob,
Your right, Mabel and Peary Rader's IronMan magazine was a great source of information for bodybuiling, powerlifting, and Olympic Lifting.
I met the Rader's at one of the National Powerlifting Championships. They were wonderful people.
IronMan certainly is not what it was. So, I am gonig to have eat some crow and state that Vaughn was right when it come to IronMan.
MuscleMedia 2000 at one time provided great information. Once Phillips sold it, MuscleMedia becaume what I termed "expensive tolit paper". That was about the only thing that "rag" was good for.
Kenny Croxdale
I guarantee it will never work if you never try it.
Those guys have all been
Those guys have all been increasing their totals. I know Hoss Cartwright totaled 1478 in 2001 at his first meet. That's hardly what you'd call genetically gifted for a guy that played college football and international rugby. He had been lifting weights for years before he started powerlifting.
If you've read about Croc, he's probably more of an ectomorph. He's gone to some extremes to be able to gain weight. He's honestly worked harder at it from a diet perspective than I have. Shelby is also a national level body builder himself. It's one thing to diet consult someone from 25 to 15% BF. It's a different world to take someone that's 12-15% and get them ready for a BB show. You don't learn that in books. There's a reason everyone goes to Shelby. I actually know a few powerlifters that have worked with him too.
Are you trying to say you can't gain weight to move up a weight class unless you have good genetics? I've honestly never met someone that couldn't gain weight. I've met people that don't eat enough to gain weight.
I don't think any of those guys have a degree in kinesiology or exercise science. They got their knowledge in the gym.
www.wildirongym.com
www.tinyurl.com/WildIron
"Are you trying to say you
"Are you trying to say you can't gain weight to move up a weight class unless you have good genetics? I've honestly never met someone that couldn't gain weight. I've met people that don't eat enough to gain weight."
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Nope. What I am saying is that moving up a weight class generally improves your total. Not to mention their total usually go up due to a bigger squat or bench. Rarely due their dead go up. Except for Croc.
I'm your ectomorph. I started lifting at 6'4" 185 pounds. I have been up to 267 now back to 251.6. I've followed Croc since he started making a name way back but I wouldn't say that he was and ectomorph. That's not to say that he didn't train his butt off.
"I don't think any of those guys have a degree in kinesiology or exercise science. They got their knowledge in the gym."
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You do not need a degree in those areas. A degree says you can learn and be taught. MS says you can conduct research. A PhD says you can teach others to do research. My degrees are in economics but I have books on training, diet, kinesiology, anatomy, nutrition, biology, chemistry, psychology, personal development, meditation, management, and others. The point is, scientific minds look for answers.
"It's a different world to take someone that's 12-15% and get them ready for a BB show. You don't learn that in books."
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Have you read any of Shelby's stuff? It's very scientific and he sites a ton of references.
Willis Lewis, Jr.
"The man that dreams success is already successful"
Thank you for the post, learned a lot reading, but a question
While the T-Nation site, and a few others, were mentioned as being worth reading, what about Louie Simmons' articles on Westside Barbell?
Andy
P.S. Hope this isn't changing the subject...
I'm just gonna sit back and
I'm just gonna sit back and watch the fireworks for and against Westside's methods.
After a while I might chime in with my own thoughts.
Simmons--"Moses" Of The "Geeks"
Andy,
Simmons improved the way powerlifters trained. As I noted in a reply to Marcus, "The irony is the information posted on Bell's site is based on information from Simmons. Simmons' training information comes from books by some of what you might term "geeks".
Thus, much of the current training wisdom was handed down from the "geeks". However, most of the lifters have NO idea where that information came from.
That because the majority of lifters (most athletes) usually don't do any reading, let along research. Most read books that have more picutures than words.
Simmons might be termed the "Moses" of the "geeks". In other word, Simmons has read the "geek" teachings, put them on the "Ten Commandment Tablets" and delivered them to "his people".
However, one of the problems is that Simmons has misinterpreted or misunderstood some of the "geeks" teaching at times. In doing so, Simmons has condemned methods that do work as not working or has misinformed lifters on information.
Two examples of that are Simmons original thoughts on Complex Training/Contrast Training. In 1998, Simmons wrote and article denouncing the effectiveness of Complex Training/Contrast Training. We now know Complex Training/Contrast Training is an effective training tool.
Simmons continues to promote the idea that when the stretch reflex can last up to 4 seconds or longer. Thus, when performing Box Squats the full effects of the stretch reflex is still maintained when pausing to "break of the "eccentric-concentric contraction".
In other word, the full power of the stretch reflex is just as strong and powerful with a one second or four second pause. WRONG!
Simmons MISINTREPRETED that information.
Simmons information on the how long the stretch reflex comes from Siff/Verkhoshansky's Supertraining (book).
Supertraining stated that while the stretch reflex can last up to 4 seconds it quickly breaks down. ..."delays as short as .02 seconds are sufficient to dissipate the benefits of prior stretch", with up to 50% of the stretch reflex being lost in one second!
Think of the stretch reflex like boiling water. When you turn off the burner under the water, it begins to cool down. The water sitting for one minute will be cooler than the boiling water with a fame under it. The water will be even cooler after sitting for four minutes.
That applies to the stretch reflex, as well.
Yet, Simmons keeps pushing the minconception of how long the stretch reflex will last.
Thus, some of the information Simmons post is quazi-science. That meaning it is a mixture/blend of correct and incorrect information. You then have to have enough knowledge to be able to figure it out.
This bring us back to lifter (athletes) and "geeks".
The majority of lifters (athletes) barely read anything, let along do any reaserch on training. Lifters/atheltes are spoon fed that information.
The information you are being "spoon fed" could be "nutritious" information or "sugar" that has very little, IF any "nutritional" information. Then there are those who mix "nutritious information" in with "sugar".
The "geeks" do there homework. They can tell you if it's "nutritious information", "sugar" or a a mixture of both.
As Brian Wallace stated, most of the "geeks" where athlets to "played the game". That is what you want, someone with book smarts who's "played the game."
The take home message is three fold:
1) Keep an open mind.
2) READ. As Alwyn Cosgrove (strenght coach) stated, "No one ever got dumber from reading a book."
3) Experiment with new training methods. "Research is what I am going when I don't know what I am doing". Einstein.
Kenny Croxdale
I guarantee it will never work if you never try it.
Brian--"Pencil Neck Geek"
Brian,
"I'm just gonna sit back and watch the fireworks for and against Westside's methods. After a while I might chime in with my own thoughts."
Brian,
What else would we expect from a "pencil neck geek" like you?
Kenny Croxdale
I guarantee it will never work if you never try it.
Delete
How do I delete this?
re: Delete
I don't think the site lets you delete a post, even your own. You can edit it though and remove all the content, thus leaving a mysterious blank post under your name.
Good Lifting!
Vaughn
----------------------------------------------------
This isn't happening, it only thinks it's happening.
Double Post
Hey Vaughn,
I somehow double posted the same information. So, I tried to delete one of them.
Thanks,
Kenny
I guarantee it will never work if you never try it.
"Nope. What I am saying is
"Nope. What I am saying is that moving up a weight class generally improves your total. Not to mention their total usually go up due to a bigger squat or bench. Rarely due their dead go up. Except for Croc."
I really don't get what the discussion of moving up a weight class has to do with this. Anyone that wants to maximize their strength realizes they need to get to the right weight class for their body. It's not like some secret advantage on the pros have. Their deadlifts rarely go up? Are you saying these guys all started out deadlifting high 700's or 800+? Deadlift improvement is going to be slow once you're over 800 lbs. There's <20 people that have ever deadlifted 900. There's a reason for that.
"Have you read any of Shelby's stuff? It's very scientific and he sites a ton of references."
Yes, but do you think he'd be so good at what he's doing if he wasn't a body builder himself? Like I said, taking someone from 12-15% to a BB show is an entirely different world than your average weight loss "guru". He has to be far more concerned with maintaining muscle and losing only fat. I actually read Kiefer who advocates a lot of the same things. It's interesting how the guys that work with athletes say to avoid breakfast while mainstream nutrition advice is to eat a large breakfast.
www.wildirongym.com
www.tinyurl.com/WildIron
Is there another gym that's
Is there another gym that's produced more elite lifters than Westside? They get some pretty amazing results for using allegedly inferior methods. Don't forget that Louie consults with colleges and pro teams as well. His reach goes far beyond powerlifting. There's a reason people travel to Columbus to get his expertise. Louie rarely travels, so everyone has to go to him.
Look at what Joe DeFranco has done with training athletes, and he bases most of his training on Louie's stuff. There's a reason DeFranco went from nothing to having his own huge facility in a few years. He produces superior results and athletes flock to him.
I have the Parisi speed school DVDs. They use many of the same methods as Louie. The main difference is they dedicate the GPP time to speed and agility drills, because those are most important to the athletes.
If all these geeks really knew half as much as they thought, then they'd be training athletes and producing superior results. They'd be the famous ones with pro teams coming to them. Most of them are working at a commercial gym training the middle-aged divorce crowd that's trying to get back into dating shape. As an athlete, I'm going to focus on what the guys working with top caliber athletes do.
My gym has only been around for <2 years. We already have 6 elite lifters, most of our gym is ranked in the top 50 of their weight class, and we have one all-time WR raw total. We aren't focused on reading a bunch of studies about what happens when you take untrained people and make them do something. We're focused on what elite and pro lifters do.
www.wildirongym.com
www.tinyurl.com/WildIron
THANKS Kenny. It's
THANKS Kenny. It's appreciated. I'm a noob that at least knows he's a noob.
The ignorance of that post
The ignorance of that post is amazing.
Aw, c'mon! Westside
Aw, c'mon! Westside (Simmons) has done a pretty good job of getting people on a reasonable regimen. Most have never been on a regimen, and that's why they advanced. But "the best"? Nope. In my inner circle of powerlifting guys/gals (back in the day), EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM were world or national champions. In one year, at the Olympia, 5 out of the top ten were my students. That was at a time when I was training an average of 20 - 30 elite and professional athletes. I even got one guy a 7m contract after a summer under my training. Another, a 30m purse! Want a list?
Folks, I don't claim anything. Just look at the record. Louie's a smart guy. He borrowed from here and there (lots of my stuff), and came up with a good record. But not as good as some say!
My point is this. Lots of god trainers out there. Lots of talented guys and gals. When they learn the concept of INTEGRATED training, they'll do better. With today's science, a LOT better than I did. But I don't see it happening yet!
I really don't get what the
I really don't get what the discussion of moving up a weight class has to do with this.
>> It's easy to increase the total by going up a class.
Are you saying these guys all started out deadlifting high 700's or 800+? Deadlift improvement is going to be slow once you're over 800 lbs.
>> There's a reason why their squat and bench goes up rapidly with no change in the pull.
Yes, but do you think he'd be so good at what he's doing if he wasn't a body builder himself?
>> Yep because he uses the science.
It's interesting how the guys that work with athletes say to avoid breakfast while mainstream nutrition advice is to eat a large breakfast.
>> I don't recall Doc or Poliquin ever saying avoid breakfast.
Willis Lewis, Jr.
"The man that dreams success is already successful"
Is there another gym that's
Is there another gym that's produced more elite lifters than Westside?
>>> Who has more Olympic medals than Poliquin?
They get some pretty amazing results for using allegedly inferior methods.
>>> The methods work for equipped powerlifters. Little carry-over to any other sport.
Don't forget that Louie consults with colleges and pro teams as well. His reach goes far beyond powerlifting. There's a reason people travel to Columbus to get his expertise. Louie rarely travels, so everyone has to go to him.
>>> Usually because they don't know any better. I got my PhD from one of the schools that traveled to see him. They came back and had every athlete doing box squats and they still got killed on the line, in the paint, off the blocks, etc.
Look at what Joe DeFranco has done with training athletes, and he bases most of his training on Louie's stuff. There's a reason DeFranco went from nothing to having his own huge facility in a few years. He produces superior results and athletes flock to him.
>>> But he uses a lot of stuff that Louie doesn't.
I have the Parisi speed school DVDs. They use many of the same methods as Louie. The main difference is they dedicate the GPP time to speed and agility drills, because those are most important to the athletes.
If all these geeks really knew half as much as they thought, then they'd be training athletes and producing superior results.
>>> Have you noticed that it's usually only football teams that go to Louie? have you noticed that most college strength coaches are powerlifters? Wonder why they use their methods?
They'd be the famous ones with pro teams coming to them. Most of them are working at a commercial gym training the middle-aged divorce crowd that's trying to get back into dating shape.
>>> Actually they have their own research labs/gyms. The ones at the commercial gyms know nothing.
As an athlete, I'm going to focus on what the guys working with top caliber athletes do.
>>> I buy that if all you are working with if powerlifters.
My gym has only been around for <2 years. We already have 6 elite lifters, most of our gym is ranked in the top 50 of their weight class, and we have one all-time WR raw total. We aren't focused on reading a bunch of studies about what happens when you take untrained people and make them do something. We're focused on what elite and pro lifters do.
>>> Neither are we.
>>>Marcus, I give you more credit for taking 6 lifters so far in such a short time. Louie generally start with people that are already near the top. As Doc mentioned, Louie initial stuff from the mid 90's was all Doc. So, I bought Doc's books and saw that Louie was twisting a lot of stuff. I am one that takes nothing at face value because someone famous said it. I have to know why it is the best. As Doc has preach there is good, better, and best. How do you know you have the best if you have only tried one method? As stated earlier, if you are looking at geared lifting, then I will give Louie credit. Actually, a caveat, it has to be multiply geared lifting. Outside of that, he is not that great.
Willis Lewis, Jr.
"The man that dreams success is already successful"