Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield

Chad Touchberry
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:21 AM Bompa "Periodization of Strength" , pg 60. Law 3: Before developing the limbs develop the core of the body! Law 4: Before developing prime movers, develop the stabilizers.
Chad

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LaxGuy
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:30 AM Good points. The core is used is almost everything, which is why I like to train that almost every workout. However, I don't necessairly see the point of training the stabalizers (since they are trained while performing the actual lift) first, unless it is a ball and socket joint (because of the large amount of instability of the joint to begin with).

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Chad Touchberry
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:38 AM Stabilization... the core stabilizes! Also, most overuse injuries occur due to failure of the stabilizers to maintain proper mechanics. This is most true in the shoulder, but also at the knee with the VMO. Stabilizers must be isolated in order to be strengthened to their fullest degree. A lesson well learned at Pitt.
Chad

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Phillip Twine Jr
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:50 AM Chad,What exercises would suggest to train the core if used first during the workout?

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LaxGuy
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:52 AM I should have clarified. I don't understand the necessity of training the stabilizers of joints involved in a particular movement, except ball and socket joints (shoulder and hip, for example). I also agree all stabalizers need to be isolated to get them as strong as possible, as is the case with any lean body tissue. But with training any movement the joint stabalizers will get stronger at the same time as the prime movers - just look at a person's knee ligaments before starting to squat, and three months later (again, the exception being ball-and-socket joints). So, although it is necessary to get them as strong as possible, isolating them isn't necessairly necessary in all cases.

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jake gunter
leg extensions Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:55 AM "Stabilizers must be isolated in order to be strengthened to their fullest degree. A lesson well learned at Pitt." I take it you got injured at Pitt by not doing enough direct stabilizer work. You don't mean calve raise, leg curl and such? I know Stone advocates more multi-joint movements, and really no direct single joint stuff, like extensions, tri work, biceps. I have dropped my tri extension work in favor of more lockout work, which has worked. I agree with the importance of the core work, oblique, low back and abs, all forming a beautiful natural belt of armor.(got that phrase from someone else). I don't know about training abs every day, or at least heavey every day. Rotating between oblique, low bacd and abs works. And I always do my core work LAST in my workout. I used to do warmups with ab work, not serious intensity, just to get the blood moving before my main pl movement for the session. Don't want to zap energy that needs to be used for a more important movement. It is difficult to put oblique training, ab training and direct low back in your workout without skimping on one of them. Careful planning and listening to your body helps in determining what is needed at what time. But as a coach, or non-competitor is it harder b/c you have to know your athlete's needs. And for the non competitor, it deosn't matter b/c they never have a set peak date to care about. Jake Gunter

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Chad Touchberry
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 11:59 AM "But with training any movement the joint stabalizers will get stronger at the same time as the prime movers" Maybe, maybe not. Depends on the program design, the exercise selection and the sport. Weightlifters have weak low traps, and Serratus Anteriors. But they hold weight over their head all day and need to stabilize their scapula's. In theory these muscle should be strong...but they are often not. "just look at a person's knee ligaments before starting to squat, and three months later (again, the exception being ball-and-socket joints)." Ligaments limit range of motion but dont add anything to dynamic stabilization. "So, although it is necessary to get them as strong as possible, isolating them isn't necessairly necessary in all cases. " It is always needed in an athletic popluation.
Chad

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LaxGuy
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:03 PM We butt heads quite a bit on stuff, don't we Chad?

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Chad Touchberry
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:14 PM "I take it you got injured at Pitt by not doing enough direct stabilizer work. You don't mean calve raise, leg curl and such?" No, I was the S&C coach there. Worked with athletes that never had been trained in core work, or stabilization. Shot putters improved their throwing distance almost immediately as they couldnt tranfer power from the legs to the arms. I have used the exercises you reccomend in addition to the heavy doses of multi-joint work. For instance, x-country runners spent a lot of time doing reverse calf raises to strengthen the ant. tib. Result? less shin splints in season. Leg curs? Didnt use much cause 50 athletes and one machinge, but I did do an ass load of RDL's, single leg RDL's, goodmornings, MB kicks, Partner resisted leg curls, Russian leans ect.... "I know Stone advocates more multi-joint movements, and really no direct single joint stuff, like extensions, tri work, biceps. I have dropped my tri extension work in favor of more lockout work, which has worked. " I agree. But stone does do a some bicep work even in his oly lifters. " I used to do warmups with ab work" Thats my basic approach: dynamic ab exercise 3x15-25 dynamic back exercise 3x8-15 DYNAMIC EXERCISES ARE SUPPERSETTED. Stabiliziation exercise 2x4 20 second side bridges ....ect. "It is difficult to put oblique training, ab training and direct low back in your workout without skimping on one of them." Not really. My approach warms-up the core. Gets stabilizers used to contracting. Takes 5-6 minutes to do. Strength is the result of training heavy overhead.
Chad

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Chad Touchberry
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:17 PM That we do. But I like that. Hopefully I make you see as much as you make me see.....even if we don't agree. BY THE WAY MODERATORS.....STUFF LIKE THESE RECENT TWO DISCUSSIONS SHOULD BE ARCHIVED AND MADE INTO AN ARTICLE. CORE WORK IS ALWAYS BROUGHT UP, AND PEOPLE HAVE MADE HELLA-GOOD POINTS....
Chad

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LaxGuy
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:34 PM "That we do. But I like that. Hopefully I make you see as uch as you make me see.....even if we don't agree." Diddo. (or is it Ditto? Whatever.)

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Kim Baugher
Gold Member Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:39 PM Do y'all think that isolation of a joint is necessary in order to make the joint more stable? For example, let's say you hold a weight overhead and walk around with it. Wouldn't this help improve shoulder stability? Actually, now that I think about it, Chad Waterbury recommends an exercise like this where you hold 2 DB's overhead and walk in a figure 8. Seems like an interesting exercise.

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smitty
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:48 PM Chad, Your , single leg RDL's??? We do these but was wondering your technique , do you keep the off leg down, with just the toe touching or lift the entire off leg off the groud??? MB Kicks???? Russian leans - I think we do the same thing...DB overhead, lean down , touch floor with off hand???

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LaxGuy
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:49 PM I personally do not think that isolation of a joint is necessary to get it to become more stable. Even in structural movements, all the soft tissue involved in the exercise will be strengthened (take my squatting and knee ligament example) appropirately. The exception I think, as I said before, is w/ ball and socket joints. Having so much laxity to begin with they need the extra work otherwise you are risking injury. Especially w/ the glenohumeral joint. Now, if you want maximum (not just adequate) stability/strength in a joint then I think it is necessary to isolate it.

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smitty
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 12:49 PM Kim, we do that exercise, works well with 2 db's and also well with a plate.

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Kim Baugher
Gold Member Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 1:34 PM Smitty, when I did single-leg RDL's they were with my off-foot off the ground. I just bent my leg, didn't try to hold it behind me or in front of me or anything. I imagine you could do Keystone DL's this way, too. I gave single-leg GM's a try... it works, but too much potential for disaster there.

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Shawn Michael
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 2:51 PM I think doing peterson step ups for the VMO and external rotator work in isolation would have saved me from unnecessary sublaxations of the patella and a shoulder.....but I was trained by idiots!! One thing that I think is really important not mentioned is some rotational work.....I do heavy side bends follow by cable chops which I really feel once the oblique has been fried a bit.........the rest of the core work I think it well addressed by sandbag lifting and such.....I like to shoulder a big sand bag and walk a few laps or do some 1 hand farmers walks ala Bob Jodin

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Shawn Michael
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 2:55 PM Anyone use Chek's tornado ball with any success? Looks interesting kinda like a "safer" substitute for hammer swinging Top Bottom

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Shawn Michael
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 3:22 PM RE: Russian leans.........sounds similar to a drill Pavel T recommends which looks kinda like a one arm saxon side bend with some leg dip so you can touch the floor....same drill? Top Bottom

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Thomas N. Thekan
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 7:04 PM If the stabilizers are composed of primarily slow twitch fibers wouldn't they respond to better to a different stimulus than the prime movers, if they are composed of primarily fast twitch fibers? In other words, we know that fast twitch fibers respond to high intensity loads and slow twitch respond better to low intensity loads. Wouldn't this indicate 2 different training protocols. One for the stabilizers and one for the prime movers????? In Bompa's book, "Complete Training for Young Champions" (?) He again states: "Stability before mobility." TNT

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Chad Touchberry
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 7:25 PM Dumbell in L hand. Stand on R foot. Cross L hand over to R foot. Do an RDL! But let the L foot go into the air. This helps mimic a RDL better as the hips go back freely. Also trains proprioception in the ankles. Body will adapt fast to the balance issue, then switch to a dyna disc. When that is easy, I progressed to a 1-leg RDL with followed by a 1 arm db snatch. This exercise is perfect for shot put as it mimics the start position. MB kicks, guy lies on floor, feet together. Hands underneith the chin (FOR PROTECTION). Partner rolls the mb at a high rate of speed down the erector spinae -----> down the crack of ja ass, down the hamstrings, when the ball hits the calf, the athlete kicks hard throwing the ball back to you. CATCH IT or he takes one in the head. Very good exercise to compliment the russian lean (ie superset them). They really help RFD in sprinters. Chad

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Chad Touchberry
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 7:29 PM Kim, Isolation is needed in sport for the KEY parts....ie shoulders in pitchers for example. I thing the walk may be good for prevention or pre-hab, but not for injury or pain. You need to relearn how to stimulate the muscles that are not contracting to stabilize. The only way to relearn is to isolate. Chad

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smitty
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 7:48 PM RE: Russian leans.........sounds similar to a drill Pavel T recommends which looks kinda like a one arm saxon side bend with some leg dip so you can touch the floor....same drill? Shawn, that's what I thought but Chad states he is refering to a GHR variation

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smitty
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 7:54 PM Forget the post right above, I guess I have to read more carefully. Thanks Chad for the good information

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CoolColJ
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 8:09 PM Shawn for rotations, try a doing an incline situp with a weight held in front of your at arms length and then when you reach 45 degrees, rotate to each side and touch the floor and then go back down, one rep ouch!

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Eric Stone
Back to Core Training... Tuesday, August 19, 2003 8:34 PM I agree that the core and stablizers must be developed.....but the big multi-joint exercises (the powerlifts or the OLs) will work them pretty well, and generally should come first. At some points in training, the far off-season, it might be a good idea to work the core first for a training effect.....but you certainly don't want to pre-fatigue your core before doing a 500 lb squat workout! I'd say generally work the core and stablizers in isolation after the main exercises--abs and back after squat/deads, rotator cuff after bench press, etc.