Dr. Squat - Dr. Fred Hatfield

b/c if you take them pre, they are going to be your primary source of fuel throughout the workout. He may be talking more to the bodybuilder here rather than an athlete, but an athlete can certainly make just as much improvement if not more improvement on the right kind of low carb diet

Of course. Some people are 300 pounds, some are 150. Some can eat a bucket of fried chicken and lose a pound; others just look at a doughnut and gain 5. Point is, it can be quite individual. Not always to extremes, but individual nonetheless.

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1371812

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=1149914

They seem to be proponents of post-workout carb intake...why not pre-workout?

The notion of carb tolerance is pretty straight forward and obvious. In terms of health and leanness, some can tolerate more carbs in their diet than others. For example, Native Americans, basically can't tolerate any. Hence with today's modern diet, American Indians have a high incidence of obesity, compared with people of other heritages. Then you have the people you know who stay thin, despite a love of bread.

As for pre-workout carb intake.....carb intake pre-workout isn't bad per se, but the thing is, your body doesn't know that it's about to workout in 30-90 minutes. It simply processes the carbs, protein, or fat normally. Thherefore, it's best to just eat normally, low glycemic, high protein with some good fats meal. Doing so will ensure steady energy throughout the workout. Post workout though, you've got to replace to rebuild.

Well, I've seen no really good evidence for this 3 hour "window." Look at it like this, this window is shutting fast, and the longer you weight, the less time you have to jump in without breaking the glass. In other words, get high GI carbs, ASAP post workout (assuming you are lean). Get them ASAP after your last rep. WIthin 3 hours you should be eating another meal.

A great strategy for guys looking to put on some mass, is a high GI post workout shake and then a big meal 1-2 hours later.

But, other than post workout, yes, always favor lower GI carbs.

I'm mostly looking to put on mass/strength, but was looking to lose some fat in the process. I'm trying to lower my carbs throughout the day and favor low GI ones primarily. I just didn't know if the high GI post-workout suggestion was still applicable with the recommendations you outlined in the Summer Six Pack article.

Sure, have not re-read it in a while, but I think I mention that carbs should be low in GI index, except for post workout carbs. Post workout, you want to spike that insulin, to push all the protein, carbs, nutrients, etc. into the tissues.

what kills me is when people eat just the egg whites off a boiled egg when they'd be better off nutritionally and weight wise eating the whole damn thing! And I agree with Charles, I don't know how long it is going to take for people to finally get over their fears of fat, or it may never happen at all, but people need to realize the real enemy is all these sugars in the diet

I just ate a plate full of guess what??? Yes its high in GI carbs but i dont care cause it doesnt effect me...You guys guess what it is??? MANGOS. Yep mangos. So yummmmmmmmy so goooooood. I always ate these since i was a kid and a plate full of fruits to. And iam still lean. HA!

#I don't know what the GI of mangos is, but when we discuss high GH carbs, we are mainly talking about pastas, breads, and sugary products that just can't pick off a tree. I would not be worried so much about mangos. But, any how, if you can eat all the junk you want as mentioned above, then you are lucky! Personally, I would find it even better to stay away from such foods any ways. That way I can save room for the needed protein to recover. I think that as you become bigger and stronger, diet becomes more important to progress even further. I remember when I was younger I would progress well no matter what I ate as long as it's a lot. But now days I have had to mess with the ratios in order to try to build more muscle and get rid of the flab.#

GI carbs - really only applicable on an empty stomach and if eating the food alone. Most of us eat foods together, naturally lowering the GI of high GI foods.

I can eat junk food but i stay away from it i just use common sense. I know when iam over doing it and when not. When i in highschool few years ago i ate like a num nut all junk food but was still a lean mean fighting machine. My upper back never had a lot of fat like Charles Poliquin said that is good =).

"Once you begin combining foods, the G.I. of individual foods really no longer is valid," says Mary Austin, a member of the American Association of Diabetes Educators board of directors. "Most people do eat mixed meals, and we are not convinced that in a mixed meal it tells you a whole lot of anything."

Those detractors of the GI index fail to realize a few things though....

1) Regardless of what the carbs are combined with, high GI carbs still cause a greater insulin response than low GI carbs, all things being equal. I.e., yes, if you eat high GI carbs, it's best to combine them with fats and protein, they help slow the absorbtion rate. Likewise, adding lemon juice to your meals, water, salad, etc. can help lower the GI of food.

2) A high percentage of high GI carb foods are highly processed carbs with very low nutritional density...e.g., bread.

3) Most low GI carb foods, are high in nutrient density. E.g., an apple, better for for you.

4) People tend not to over indulge in low GI carbs nearly as much, for two reasons: A) They're typically not very calorically dense. B) Many are high inf fiber, and will force you to self regulate how much you eat or suffer the consequences. In other words, people go back for second and third helping of lasagna and dressing, but rarely for cabbage.

5) Many of the detractors simply fail to realize/understand the importance of the role of insulin and insulin management with regards to health. This is evidenced by FDA nutrition recommnedations over the last 15+ years. Last year they finally made some adjustments for the better, but they could still stand a complete overhaul with the fact that type II diabetes will soon be challenging heart disease, and cancer in the number of people affected by the disease. This despite the fact that type II diabetes is completely preventable.

3) Most low GI carb foods, are high in nutrient density. E.g., an apple, better for for you.

An orange or a banana are far more nutritious than an apple,

### How so? A bananna has no where near the antioxidants that an apple has. This is evident by it's thin skin. Thin skined fruits typically have more antioxidants because they are needed to prevent oxidative damage from the sun. Thick skinned fruits such as bannanas and pineapples, don't have as many antioxidants, not to mention phyto nutrients.

yet an apple has a lower GI. Many lower GI foods are less nutritious than higher GI foods. Which is better? A potato or a bowl of ice cream. According to GI it is the ice cream!

### Look at what you're comparing! That's why you don't base your food choicest solely on one thing such as the GI index. No proponent of using the GI index that I have ever read suggests ice cream as a staple of carb intake.

As John Parrillo says, "the second problem with this method (the GI method) of rating foods is that some people choose foods low on the index. And many of these foods are simply not good for you, especially if you are trying to gain mass and stay lean. Take ice cream, for example. It has a low glycemic index, yet it's full of fat and sugar. .... Potatoes on the other hand, have a relatively high glycemic index, yet I have never seen any bodybuilder get fat from eating potatoes.

### Well, he makes a point, but there are far better choices than either potatoes or ice cream for someone wanting to gain lean mass. Namely fruits and vegetables, which should make up the majority of one's carb intake. Assuming that's the case, my assertions hold true. With certain acceptions to the rule.

Keep in mind that many foods with a low glycemic index can lead to unwanted body fat."

### While, they in fact "can." Understand that high GI index foods, most certainly will!

Parrillo is not throwing out the baby with the bathwater. He does say "it is important to understand the various effects foods have on insulin release". He clarifies this by saying "the glycemic index does not provide a complete picture."

### When he must compare ice cream and potatoes to make his point it certainly sounds like it.

This was my initial point - that GI does not paint a complete picture. Too many people read Glycemic indices as if they were Scripture. They skip nutrient laden fruits, potatoes, etc. and eat lower GI foods that may simply be calorie dense, or nutrient sparse.

### Again, there are very few low gi index carbs like that, you've mentioned ice cream, what are some others? Now compare that to the high GI index carb choices that are high calorie with low nutrient density. It's a much greater number. The point is, as most GI index proponents suggest, is to eat low GI foods that are nutrient dense, as your primary source of carb intake. Are their acceptions, and individual adjustments to be made? Certainly, but to say, that the GI index doesn't mean much, because if someone really wants to they can still make poor food choices is silly. At some point, people have to use common sense and understand that ice cream isn't a great food choice whether it's high GI index, low, low fat, low sugar, or anything else. It taste good period. It should never be a part of someone's nutritional plan for optimal health, physique transformation, or athletic performance. It's ok, for an occasional treat, and that's it.

Minerals:

Potassium: advantage BANANA
apples 158mg
bananas 467mg

Calcium: advantage APPLE
apples 9.5mg
bananas 7mg

Phosphorus: advantage BANANA
apples 9.5mg
bananas 27mg

Magnesium: advantage BANANA
apples 7mg
bananas 43mg

Selenium: advantage BANANA
apples 0.4mg
bananas 1.3mg

Iron: advantage BANANA
apples: trace or none
bananas 0.4gm

Vitamins:
Vitamin A: advantage BANANA
apples 73IU
bananas 95IU

Vitamin C: advantage BANANA
apples 9mg
bananas 11mg

Folate: advantage BANANA
apples: 4mcg
bananas:22.5 mcg

Vitamin E: no significant difference
apples 0.66IU
bananas 0.67IU

Vitamin B6: advantage BANANA
apples: trace or none
bananas: 0.7mcg

Niacin: advantage BANANA
apples: trace or none
bananas: 0.6mg

Pantothenic acid: advantage BANANA
apples: trace or none
bananas: 0.31mg

In case you were wondering, neither has significant amount of protein although the banana has slightly more. Both are good sources of fiber with between 3-4 grams of fiber per piece of fruit, the apple is slightly higher in fiber content than the banana with the apple closer to 3.5-4g with the banana at 3-3.5g.

To summarize: unless I'm craving an apple, I choose a banana every time due to the superior nutrition contained in a banana!

You are only mentioning common vitamins and minerals. Apples (and all fruits in general) have hundreds of phytochemicals and antioxidants NOT listed on the food label. Thats the same reason why vitamin tablets do not compare with proper consumption fruits or vegetables. Do a quick internet research on phytochemicals.

Outstanding, I am so glad you reminding me! In my earlier haste I forgot to spell this out as well! Bananas AND oranges both make everybody's top foods for nutrition and disease fighting due to both vitamin and phytonutrient composition! Notice the apple is on such lists as well as apples most certainly have high levels of nutrition!

That said, oranges are certainly higher in phytonutrient composition compared to apples and bananas . Remember: my first contention was that the HIGHER GI FRUITS such as oranges and bananas were more nutritious than apples (let's not start with pineapples, mmm, high GI and super nutritious!!!!). This is NOT to say that an apple is devoid of nutrition by any means, as I'm sure somebody will try to claim that I am saying that! (By no means - as an FYI I eat approximately 3 apples a week, but eat more oranges and bananas than apples). So if you choose an apple you are getting a great source of nutrition.

A quick study of phytonutrient/phytochemical composition will demonstrate that the fruits HIGHEST in such nutrients include the orange but do not include the apple or banana. Again both apples and bananas are certifiably good sources of such nutrients, but not the BEST sources.

OK, so now I have demonstrated that
a) bananas are superior to apples with respect to common vitamins and minerals (oranges are superior to apples as well but I didn't have time to write out the vitamin/mineral values)
b) oranges are superior to apples with respect to phytonutrients (I don't have a comparison of apples and bananas but both are listed as good sources so I will consider them, for sake of argument, equivalent)

e.g. of oranges listed as one of the best sources
http://www.phytochemicals.info/plants-list.php

e.g. of citrus fruits (which include oranges) listed as one of the 12 best sources of phytonutrients
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_foods_high_in_phytonutrients

Banana's arent that high in antioxidants. Did you know that the recommended daily antioxidant dose should add up to 5000 ORAC units each day. And you have to eat 2.4kilos of banana's a day to get your daily dose.

The ORAC is not the best unit because different antioxidants have different effects.

Chinese Wolfberries 25300=ORAC units and grams to hit RDA is 20

For banana's its 210 ORAC units and grams to hit RDA is 2381

I can't believe this post deteriotated into comparing apples and oranges

well everything I have seen talks about phytonutrients in the 'non-peel' portion (i.e. the edible portion) of the orange.

Don't worry - this is my last posting on this subject, mainly because I really like bananas, oranges, AND apples and am getting a bit weary of the topic.

Bananas - GI of 51
Apples - GI of 38
(depending upon the source, I was looking at www.carbs-information.com)

Thus both are LOW GI FOODS!!!!!!!

Bananas are superior with respect to vitamins and minerals as I demonstrated in this thread (info was for medium sized fruits and was from the United States Department of Agriculture FOod and Nutrition Center)

Both are good sources of antioxidants but it appears apples are better (www.dolenutrition.com) as apples are listed as a superior antioxidant food.

So, both are low GI foods. Bananas are better with respect to vitamins and minerals. Apples are better with respect to antioxidants.

Todd, I will hold out an olive branch. Since both are fantastic foods (and both low GI) I will eat an apple tomorrow if you will eat a banana?!

Okay I'm jealous...there I said it.

What do each of you define as a high GI carb? Anything over 38 or 51? Is there a specific value one should not exceed?

Since this post was about individual carb tolerance should we all be eating just carbs below a certain GI score or based on what we can tolerate?

I am basing my information on what science has determined as high/medium/low glycemic values. On the nutritionists I have read, most have a general consensus that 55 and below is 'low'.

As mentioned few of us eat food on its own. We combine our foods, and thus the glycemic index of the 'meal' would be taken into account.

One of the most effective supplement strategies I've ever used! Very few supplements can make as big a difference at increasing lean mass and fat loss like BCAA supplementation!

These results shouldn’t be too surprising because we’ve known for over a decade that postworkout protein synthesis is jacked up for this long (MacDougall et al., 1995), but if you’re discovering this for the first time, then it’s pretty exciting!

Some research suggests that even 48 hours after the workout our protein synthesis levels can be elevated by ~33% (Phillips et al., 1997), giving us an even longer period during which we can maximize our muscle growth with protein drinks."

http://www.t-nation.com/readTopic.do?id=659666

The above is a caption for an article on T-Nation that I posted elsewhere on this thread. He references some research that states that the window is open for up to 24 hours. I don't know if the studies he's referencing or credible or not.

However, it makes me wonder if the window is open for that long would it matter if the carbs consumed post-workout were of the lower GI type?

I've seen a few studies with similar finding, and essentially what they've found is exercise is good for things like protein synthesis. But, post workout supplmentation immediately after the last rep is most effective. Research confirms it IMO, but regardless, whether it does conclusively or not, empirical evidence proves it!