ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

ROCKYTILSON's picture

You know, deadlifting, frequency, training ideology is heavily debated. I dont think there is any one great formula that works.

I know that most great deadlifters, were already inherently strong at that lift without training it or very little to begin with.

Research would indicate that you can have a great deadlift and NEVER deadlift. There is a study that was done at the 1968 Olympics where the weightlifters were tested concerning their overall strength/ speed with regards to only weightlifting movements.

What was found, is that the weightlifters JUMPED Higher than the HIGH JUMPERS and that the weightlifters were FASTER than the sprinters at the Olympic training center. WOW!!

What this also tells us, is that because the Olympic lifts, snatch and clean and jerk, and associated training movements of these athletes yields greater watts of energy than squatting or just deadlifting alone, that there is great benefit to doing these movements.

I think that by just adding GOOD MORNINGS and Working some hang cleans, power cleans, and doing some secondary pull movements (as in the snatch at the secondary stage, would greatly enhance a persons ability to move greater weight in the deadlift.

It is said, that weightlifters that can clean in the 300-350 range, and never deadlift, can pull 600 lbs deadlift without any problem, and yet never deadlift. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

I believe the watts generated during a deadlift is under 800 watts. Adversly, the watts generated in the secondary pull of the snatch is over 3,000 watts. Even at lighter weight, the benefit ratio is ENORMOUS.

Something to think about guys Smiling

ROCKY TILSON

Indy Power Team

ROCKYTILSON's picture

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

This was actually the 64 olympics.

I got some of the info from Dr's article written some time ago. Great stuff. I couldnt remember where this was coming from, and noticed I had read DOC's stuff.

Good to embrace this good information and you know its good if it came from Fred Smiling

ROCKY TILSON

Indy Power Team

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Yeah, but most guys that have deadlifted 800+ deadlift heavy and pretty often. I think it's pretty easy to get into the 600's without deadlifting to do it.

ROCKYTILSON's picture

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

MARCUS

Its never easy to pull 600 lbs. Look at almost ANY meet and see how many do this. Fewer at 700 and almost NONE at 800 lbs.

I doubt there are many SUPER heavyweight olympic lifters that can pull 800 lbs. I bet almost `100% can.

Adversely...i know that 99% of the SUPERS in powerlifting CANT pull 800 lbs.

Once again, if you look at the OLYMPIC lifters who NEVER deadlift....see whos cleaning over 400-450 lbs..i GAURANTEE they all pull over 800 lbs..and NEVER deadlift Smiling

Shane Hammons deadlift is in the 800 lbs + range now, HIGHER than ever, due to OLYMPIC LIFTING...and he doesnt deadlift anymore.

Thats my point.

ROCKY TILSON

Indy Power Team

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

I have to chuck my 0.02 in here:

I think oly lifting is fun!

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

As far as OL'ers being "faster" than sprinters, I believe it meant they could accellerate to their top speed faster than sprinters at the time, because of their greater physical strength (specifically, STARTING strength).

While OL'ers don't deadlift, they do other pulls. It doesn't seem advisable for PL'ers to switch to OL-type pulls as a substitute for deadlifts on a full-time basis.

However, there is a basic, useful logic to what you say about being able to be good at DLs without actually doing them. It implies that PL'ers can add variety to their routines to help bring up their DLs. The issue of generating "force" as opposed to focusing strictly on how much weight is on the bar ia also an excellent one to bring up. Supposedly, some individuals using the so-called "Tendo" devices for measuring force, could make progress on their squats while using only half their usual poundages.

Again, on DLs, OL'ers are GOOD DL'ers, but one would need to do DLs to become a GREAT DL'er.

BBpowerlifter's picture

weightlifter deadlift

I have to disagree with you on that, I've known many oly weightlifters and most were weak at the deadlift, true they have great pulling power ( by watt) but they seem not to have the ability to generate it for as long as it takes to complete the pull
One guy could do a 400 lbs clean and jerk ant ANY time but at deadlift he would struggle with little over 500
Interestingly he would pull 800 from blocks at above knee level (explosively!) guess it's what Doc says about keeping your functional strength and your limit strength close, in my opinion THAT is what made him a great olympic weightlifter

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

well my two cents is this:
The olifters do work at deadlift constantly over and over again. Their routine is based of deadlifting the weight. The start of their lift is a form of deadlifting. So they also work the lock out constantly because of the explosive power they need during the second pull.
That is my two cents and as for them being able to deadlift more than the average powerlifter of the same weight well most powerlifters are not pros that train constantly at a professional level. All of the forgien lifter train only for the olympics plers dont have that. Again my opinion but i think cleans can increase your starting power on the deadlift.

Re: ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadli

Quote:
Research would indicate that you can have a great deadlift and NEVER deadlift.

I agree, you don't have to deadlift to be a great deadlifter. However, I am not familiar with any specific research that states that.

If you have research on it, I'd like to see it.

With that said there is empirical data that indicates one does not have to deadlift to increase their deadlift.

"The NO Deadlift Training" artiele goes into this. [http://www.strengthcats.com/nodeadlift.htm]

It is more like an update to Bill Starr's "A Different Approach To Improving The Deadlift". [http://forum.dutchbodybuilding.com/f114/a-different-approach-to-improving-the-deadlift-135300/]

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There is a study that was done at the 1968 Olympics where the weightlifters were tested concerning their overall strength/ speed with regards to only weightlifting movements.

That is the rumor. However, no one has ever been able to provide that study.

Quote:
What was found, is that the weightlifters JUMPED Higher than the HIGH JUMPERS and that the weightlifters were FASTER than the sprinters at the Olympic training center. WOW!!

There is probably some truth to that. Olympic lifters are some of the most explosive athlete in the world.

Quote:
What this also tells us, is that because the Olympic lifts, snatch and clean and jerk, and associated training movements of these athletes yields greater watts of energy than squatting or just deadlifting alone, that there is great benefit to doing these movements.

The NO deadlift article goes into this. Here is the break down.

Second Pulls:
52.6 w/kg Men

Squat and Deadlift:
12 w/kg Men

Quote:
I think that by just adding GOOD MORNINGS and Working some hang cleans, power cleans, and doing some secondary pull movements (as in the snatch at the secondary stage, would greatly enhance a persons ability to move greater weight in the deadlift.

Exactly! This is Starr's program and echoed in a bit more depth in "The NO Dealift article.

Quote:
I believe the watts generated during a deadlift is under 800 watts. Adversly, the watts generated in the secondary pull of the snatch is over 3,000 watts. Even at lighter weight, the benefit ratio is ENORMOUS.

"...a100-kilo male lifter in the clean, second pull and deadlift would be as follows.

Clean-------------3430 watts
Second Pull----5260 watts
Deadlift----------1200 watts"

[http://www.strengthcats.com/nodeadlift.htm]

Before moving on, one of the problem that is that the majority of lifter "feel" that that have to deadlift. The problem with that is that the majority train the deadlift to heavy, too often.

In working with several lifters who believed that the had to deadlift, we cut back on the frequence of their deadlift sessions...meaning they would deadlift once every two to three weeks.

We also had them implement some Olympic pulls into their program. By cutting back on the frequencey of their deadlift sessions and incorporating Olympic pulls, they increased their deadlift.

The best example of this is Mike Tronski of Chino Hills, CA. Mike increased his deadlift from 535 to 600.

My deadlift increased from 540 to 620 by completely eliminating the deadlfit from my training.

Phil Rivera of Albuquerque, New Mexico added 40 lbs to his deadlift by only deadliftitng once a month and performing Olympic pulls and good mornings the rest of the time.

Again, the majority of lifters simply overtrain the deadlift.

Kenny Croxdale

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Quote:
Roderick Reilly wrote:
As far as OL'ers being "faster" than sprinters, I believe it meant they could accellerate to their top speed faster than sprinters at the time, because of their greater physical strength (specifically, STARTING strength).

Yes. Olympic lifters have great explosive speed. Another group of athlete that exhibits that same power output are shot putters.

The Olympic lifters and shot putters will usually blow sprinter away in the fist 30 meters. After that the spinters will dominate.

So as you noted, Olympic lifter have tremendous "starting strength."

Quote:
While OL'ers don't deadlift, they do other pulls. It doesn't seem advisable for PL'ers to switch to OL-type pulls as a substitute for deadlifts on a full-time basis.

Olympic pulls increase your power output. Doing that enables you to generate more power/speed at you sticking point.

It like being driing through a mud hole in your car. The faster you hit the mud hole, the more likely the momentum that you have generated is going to get you through it.

The same things is true in lifting and you sticking point.

Quote:
However, there is a basic, useful logic to what you say about being able to be good at DLs without actually doing them. It implies that PL'ers can add variety to their routines to help bring up their DLs. The issue of generating "force" as opposed to focusing strictly on how much weight is on the bar ia also an excellent one to bring up. Supposedly, some individuals using the so-called "Tendo" devices for measuring force, could make progress on their squats while using only half their usual poundages.

Great point.

Quote:
Again, on DLs, OL'ers are GOOD DL'ers, but one would need to do DLs to become a GREAT DL'er.

Not necessarily so. The no deadlift article and Starr's deadlift article go more into this.

Kenny Croxdale

Re: weightlifter deadlift

BBpowerlifter wrote:
I have to disagree with you on that, I've known many oly weightlifters and most were weak at the deadlift, true they have great pulling power ( by watt) but they seem not to have the ability to generate it for as long as it takes to complete the pull
One guy could do a 400 lbs clean and jerk ant ANY time but at deadlift he would struggle with little over 500
Interestingly he would pull 800 from blocks at above knee level (explosively!) guess it's what Doc says about keeping your functional strength and your limit strength close, in my opinion THAT is what made him a great olympic weightlifter

Olympic pulls are primarily used as a means of increasing pulling power in the deadlift, not building limit strength.

Good mornings are uses to build limit strength.

Combining these to exercise into a well written program will increase your deadlift.

It like baking a cake. Even if you have all the right stuff, if you put the wrong amounts in, you cake doesn't come out right.

Kenny Croxdale

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Quote:
ROCKYTILSON wrote:
This was actually the 64 olympics.

No it was 1968. Fred got put the wrong year in there.

Quote:
I got some of the info from Dr's article written some time ago. Great stuff. I couldnt remember where this was coming from, and noticed I had read DOC's stuff.

"Athletes and the Olympic Lifts is a good article. However, there has yet to be anyone who can provide that "reseaarch articl" of the Olympic lifter vs the high jumpers and sprinters.

While there appears to be evidence that Olymmpic lifter exhibit that kind of power, where is that research paper? Did it ever exhist?

Kenny Croxdale

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

MarcusWild wrote:
Yeah, but most guys that have deadlifted 800+ deadlift heavy and pretty often. I think it's pretty easy to get into the 600's without deadlifting to do it.

if so, then everyone should be pulling 600 lb plus. Yet, that not the case.

Kenny Croxdale

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

I think this concept works much better for conventional deadlifters, less so for sumo pullers. The sumo deadlifts is a much more technical pull, and requires more technical practice.

Personally, I spent a great deal of 2006 into 2007 greatly reducing my volume of deadlifting. It was partly because of necessity as I didn't have anyone to pull with mid-week, and just couldn't get myself "up" for a big deadlift workout by myself in the morning. So I put deadlifts after squats, and did some Olympic lifting movements, some plyos, and Olympic-type squats. While I enjoyed the routine (I like doing Olympic lifts), and it did seem to help my squat, my deadlift was more stagnet in the low 500s.

This past fall I switched back over to a dedicated deadlift day with a high volume of pulling. I also kept deadlifting on my squat day, but did it lighter, and switched to conventional on that day. I hit a 20lb PR at the end of my first training cycle with this style (535), and am looking to go about 550 now at my next meet.

Now, I'm not saying the no deadlift routine doesn't work, because it seems many lifters have had success with it. For me, more deadlifting worked (2x/week). The switch in focus mentally helped quite a bit for me partially I believe. You have to adjust the focus of your training occassionally to garner change. It might be cutting out all pulling and focusing on Olympic pulls, or it might be deadlifting even more.

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Anyone ever consider that maybe the guys that are excelling in Olympic lifts were also built to pull? SO when they do deadlift they already have that advantage and it comes easy and natural to them.

WHen ever I look at different lifters training templates I always look how much they bench. If it is pretty low that usually tells me they are built to pull and I shouldn't take advice from them. The reason that is because I'm built to bench and deadlifting beats my back up. Usually pullers can handle lots of pulling on multiple days.

So before taking an example that Olympic pulls will build your deadlift think that maybe these guys are just built this way. I was able to clean 395lbs and snatch 275lbs and I sucked at deadlifting. I think 500lbs felt like a ton for some reason when I tried doing it during college. RIght now i'm 265lbs and I"ve pulled 700lbs before in competition and I do not do olympic lifting anymore. On the other hand I never deadlift so my back never got stronger so I never got the limit strength Kenny mentions. Hmmm something to consider.

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Perhaps a matter of good, better, best as I have heard Doc say many times. Deadlifting hurts, your hands bleed, blood vessels pop, you burst vessels in your nose and eyes. I can see the temptation to use goodmornings or the olympic movements, and I am convinced they work. But are they best? Refer to the law of specificity.

· The Specificity Principle: You’ll get stronger at squats by doing squats as opposed to leg presses, and you’ll get greater endurance for the marathon by running long distances than you will by (say) cycling long distances.

I like to read that Eric Dodd poem every once in awhile before a deadlift workout. it gets me in the right mind set. Helps if your boss/wife/girlfriend really pisses you off beforehand too.

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Quote:
The Stone wrote:
I think this concept works much better for conventional deadlifters, less so for sumo pullers.

Good point. I believe the Olympic pulls have more carry over for conventional deadlifts vs sumo lifters.

Olympic pulls will help the sumo lifter but to a less exetent than the conventional deadlifter.

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The sumo deadlifts is a much more technical pull, and requires more technical practice.

The deadlift, sumo or conventional, does not require much technique. So, a a sumo deadlifter needing to "practice" the lift more is questionable.

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Personally, I spent a great deal of 2006 into 2007 greatly reducing my volume of deadlifting. It was partly because of necessity as I didn't have anyone to pull with mid-week, and just couldn't get myself "up" for a big deadlift workout by myself in the morning. So I put deadlifts after squats, and did some Olympic lifting movements, some plyos, and Olympic-type squats. While I enjoyed the routine (I like doing Olympic lifts), and it did seem to help my squat, my deadlift was more stagnet in the low 500s.

Squatting before you deadlift will kill you deadlift.

Quote:
This past fall I switched back over to a dedicated deadlift day with a high volume of pulling. I also kept deadlifting on my squat day, but did it lighter, and switched to conventional on that day. I hit a 20lb PR at the end of my first training cycle with this style (535), and am looking to go about 550 now at my next meet.

If you going to squat and deadlift on the same day, light to moderate squat work best...as you noted.

Quote:
Now, I'm not saying the no deadlift routine doesn't work, because it seems many lifters have had success with it. For me, more deadlifting worked (2x/week). The switch in focus mentally helped quite a bit for me partially I believe. You have to adjust the focus of your training occassionally to garner change. It might be cutting out all pulling and focusing on Olympic pulls, or it might be deadlifting even more.

The key is to train you lower back without overtraining it. However, you get there...that all that counts.

Also, including some power work is fundamental. You want to generate enough speed to get through your sticking point.

Kenny Croxdale

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Quote:
Tony_Quist wrote:
Anyone ever consider that maybe the guys that are excelling in Olympic lifts were also built to pull? SO when they do deadlift they already have that advantage and it comes easy and natural to them.

Genetics play a role. However, Olympic movements develop more power in athletes. As per Hatfield, "Well, OK. So some of it came from genetics. But you can rest assured that much too came from the specialized training they undergo in that sport." ATHLETES AND THE OLYMPIC LIFTS[http://drsquat.com/home/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=95&Itemid=28]

The article basically states that if you aren't are performing Olympic movements, you leaving something on the table.

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WHen ever I look at different lifters training templates I always look how much they bench. If it is pretty low that usually tells me they are built to pull and I shouldn't take advice from them. The reason that is because I'm built to bench and deadlifting beats my back up. Usually pullers can handle lots of pulling on multiple days.

Untrue. Many great/good deadlifters cannot pull heavy on multiple days. Chip McCain, of the best ever, pulled heavy every other week.

As Dr Tom McLaughlin noted, the lower back is easily over trained. Squatting as well as deadlifting takes it out of the lower back.

In reference to the deadlift, Simmon's has also echoed this sentiment, "Why do something (the deadlift) that takes more than it give back."

What Simmons' is saying is that the deadlift beats up the lower back like no other exercise.

Thus, less is more when it comes to deadlifting...meaning less frequent deadlift sessions...so that lower back can recover.

Again, the majory reason tha the most lifters have problem with the deadlift is from overtraining. In almost every lifter that I have worked with that is their problem, overtraining.

It's "Occum's Razon." The simplest answer is usually the right answer.

However as I have noted, most lifter are emotionally attached to the deadlift. The "FEEL" that they must deadlfit to deadlift.

I provided two examples in one of my previous post (Mike Tronski and Phil Rivera).

With both these lifter we allowe them to continue deadlifting. However, we dropped their deadlift training sessions back.

Mike Tronski deadlifts once every two to three weeks. Mike put 65 lbs on his deadlift and will be adding more to it. Mike is not built to deadlift, so it the training not the genetics.

Phil Rivera went to deadlifting once a month. Phil added 40 lbs to his deadlift, literally over night.

You lower back get a lot of work from squatting and other movements.

So, the take home message is don't beat up/overtrain your lower back!

Kenny Croxdale

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Quote:
Yukon wrote:
Perhaps a matter of good, better, best as I have heard Doc say many times. Deadlifting hurts, your hands bleed, blood vessels pop, you burst vessels in your nose and eyes. I can see the temptation to use goodmornings or the olympic movements, and I am convinced they work. But are they best? Refer to the law of specificity.

· The Specificity Principle: You’ll get stronger at squats by doing squats as opposed to leg presses, and you’ll get greater endurance for the marathon by running long distances than you will by (say) cycling long distances.

One certainly need to perform the movement to learn it. However, performing the movement as exercise is not the best idea. Dr Tom McLaughlin stated that in is book on bench pressing, "Bench Press More Now." The same applies to the squat and deadlift.

McLaughlin recommends performing the movement (bench press, deadlift, squat, etc) with fairly heavy singles as a means of programing the movement into you central nervous system. That is "Specificity."

To correctly learning any movement, the movement need to be stopped once technique deteriorates.

The key to increasing strength is intensity. When the intensity of an exercise reaches its maximum level, lifters disregard technique and opts to get the weight up, no matter what it takes.

In doing so, it reinforces bad technique. "You lift like you train," so to speak.

McLaughlin recommends performing the lift with heavy loads with the emphasis on technique. Once technique falters, the lift is discontinued.

McLaughlin utilizes auxiliary exericses that are similar in nature to the lift itself, exercises that work tha same muscle groups, as a mean of increasing strength.

Simmons' West Side Method adhears to McLaughlin's recommendations. Simmons advocates the use of sub maximum loads (40-60% for the squat, bench press, and deadlift).

The West Side Method is utilized to increase power. Also, the use of these sub maximum loads allows the lifter to develop technique.

West Side uses auxiliary exercises that are similar in nature to the lift as a means of increasing strength, the same as McLaughlin recommends.

You don't pole vault for reps. You don't snatch for reps. So, why do powerlifter squat, bench press and deadlift for heavy sets of reps? It doesn't make sense.

The West Side template is successful, in part, due to the philosophy of using sub maximum loads squats, bench, and deadlift...this allows the lifter to learn technique.

Auxiliary exercises are disposable exercises. You can burn them out and move on to another auxiliary exercise. Trash the auxlilary exercise not the powerlift itself.

Quote:
I like to read that Eric Dodd poem every once in awhile before a deadlift workout. it gets me in the right mind set. Helps if your boss/wife/girlfriend really pisses you off beforehand too.

I understand what you are trying to say. However, this is a questionable method.

To maximize what every you are doing you want to be totally focused on what you are doing. You don't want to replaying something your girl friend or boss said or did to you.

One of the best articles on this was "The Calm Before The Storm" by Dr Billy Jack Talton. Talton research showed that the more finess needed in any sport, the calmer the athlete needs to be.

The squat and the bench press require a bit more technique. In any big lift you adrenlin will be going. What you want to do is harness it...much like nuclear power.

Less technique is necessary the the deadlift so more agression can be used. With that said, I would still maintain that you don't want what your girl friend or boss said or did occupying you mind before pulling a heavy deadlift. "Keep you eye on the ball."

Kenny Croxdale

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Kenny, I would respectfully disagree on the sumo deadlift. It is a much more technical lift than the conventional pull. I know this from doing it myself and teaching it to many lifters. I also see many lifters in meets with very poor form, and definately moreso in the sumo the conventional deadlift. See RDC's Advanced Powerlifting Techniques article on it.

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

The Stone wrote:
Kenny, I would respectfully disagree on the sumo deadlift. It is a much more technical lift than the conventional pull. I know this from doing it myself and teaching it to many lifters. I also see many lifters in meets with very poor form, and definately moreso in the sumo the conventional deadlift. See RDC's Advanced Powerlifting Techniques article on it.

How long does it take someone to learn to sumo or conventional deadlift? Not long. That is becaus these movement are one of the easiest to learn.

The percentage lifters performing the sumo incorrectly at meets is no greater than the conventional deadlifters.

Ricky is a smart guy but he wrong in stating the the squat and bench press are "more brute strength" movements compared to the deadlift.

Squats and the bench press are more technical lifts requiring a bit more "finess" that a sumo or conventional deadlift. And while technique plays a role in moving the weight...the deadlift is not so technical that it is that hard to learn or perform correctly.

Kenny Croxdale

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Kenny, I'm a guy who listened to your articles and believed all the people saying that you could build a fantastic deadlift without pulling heavy very often. What it got me was stuck for years at a pull of the mid to high 500's. I'm sure some people wouldn't mind having a pull like that, but here's the kicker... when I started training specifically (i.e. actually deadlifting), my deadlift started moving again. Now, only a few years later, I've pulled 804 in a meet and I'm preparing to pull an IPF world record this year. It was built by deadlifting.

As I read this thread, I noticed fallacy after fallacy being tossed around and I need to address it.

1) anecdotally, the olympic lifters I've known were not strong in the deadlift. As someone else said, most Oly guys I've known can only deadlift a little more than they can clean (not more than 100 pounds). And they were reasonably high caliber oly lifters. Rocky, you said that you "guarantee" that top SHW oly lifters could DL 800... I would bet you $100 that you couldn't substantiate that guarantee. I'd be another $100 that there's no way in hell that very many of them could DL over 800.

2) This stuff about the DL generating more watts might be true from a physics sense, but it's not about simple physics here. The guy who mentioned the principle of specificity is right. While a clean and a deadlift look similar, they are different. Among other issues, there are subtle technique differences with the starting position and the direction of force application that make the motor recruitment patterns different. So, while you might be generating more power in an olympic movement, it is in a manner that is not a specific as it could be.

3) The idea that the deadlift (sumo AND conventional) is not a technical lift is a gross misconception. Most sumo deadlifters get this, but people (lifters included) think conventional pulling is just "bend over, grab the bar, and pick it up." There's a lot more to it than that. For me (and many, many others), if my foot postiion is off, if my breathing is off, if I don't put my hips in the same start position every time, etc, etc, then the lift is going to be sub-par. There are just as many technique points to the deadlift as there are to the squat and bench. You have to be paying attention to notice them, but they are there. The point that "many do it right in meets" is incorrect. It's not just about doing it right fundamentally. It's about having your technique refined to the point where every minuscule detail (details that can't be seen by outside observers) is in place so your deadlift is the most efficient it can possibly be. This takes lots of repitition to get it ingrained to the point where it is automatic.

4) Rocky, do you have any evidence at all that Shane Hammand's deadlift is over 800? How do you know that he doesn't train DL?

5) I understand where you think that many train the deadlift "too heavy, too often". I, however, think that those who DO train the DL every week often train too heavy. But by the same token, once weekly is not often enough for any lift (in my opinion). It's a popular idea now to only deadlift heavy once every 2 weeks or even once per month. And guess what -- DL numbers are in the toilet for high level powerlifters. We have guys that "squat" 1000 pounds but can't pull 600 in some cases. That's aweful and pathetic. And it comes from laziness in training the deadlift. I understand that what Kenny and Rocky are advocating is pulling OL movements weekly and just DLing heavy once every other week, but that isn't the answer either. Working consistently on your deadlift is the best way to improve your deadlift. You might have to restrict the poundages that you do, but the yield will be greater.

6) The concept of "speeding" through your sticking point is a misconception. A max weight will move slowly. This is simple physics. If you can move a max weight quickly (i.e. acceleration is still large), then you can add more weight to the bar. So, if a max weight moves slowly, then generating more "speed" at your sticking point would be an ineffective way to improve any lift. On the other hand, making your weak ROM stronger will make your lifts go up because you can generate more force as a whole.

7) Kenny, I agree that it isn't "easy" to pull 600, as "easy" is in relation to one's full potential. I just wanted to note that we agree on some things....

8 ) Squatting before you deadlift will not necessarily "kill" your DL. It depends on how the rest of your training is constructed. My team and I did a routine where 3/4 of our DL's were done after squatting. That brought my DL up to a very easy 760. Everyone else had success with it too, but I can't remember the numbers.

9) Olympic lifts are NOT needed to train athletes. This is a big can of worms, but this video explains most of where I'm at.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOKc5KwrTgU

10) Just to be clear, I'm not advocating pulling "heavy" (i.e. max effort) every week. But I am advocating pulling moderately heavy (70-90% and almost always leaving at least 1 rep in the tank, and controlling the volume) at least once per week.

11) The low back is not easily overtrained IF it is conditioned properly throughly good training. Also, if you control the volume of your training to suit your conditioning level (in all things -- not just deadlifts), then overtraining is really not much of a concern anyway.

12) Kenny, I understand what you're saying about intensity having an influence on strength, but calling it the "key" is not a complete answer. Pairing intensity with a volume of work is what builds strength. Consiquently, repetitive practice of the competitive movements with good form a) builds technique and b) builds strength in a manner specific to that lift. You are absoluely correct when you say "you lift like you train". That's the whole reason why I maintain that the olympic lifts are not the way to train for a deadlift. If you train the olympic lifts, your deadlift will be much like a clean. This is not the optimal way to deadlift.

Phew! I know that this will come off to be negative, but that's not my intention. After training people in a variety of ways, I've found that this "Don't deadlift to improve your deadlift" stuff does not work as well as other principles. There was something else I wanted to say, but I think I've said enough.

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

I agree with Mike. Sumo is pretty technical and even conventional is technical when you get near your max. When I'm pulling in a suit, my technique is to roll the bar into me and then pull. It lets me get my hips low enough and into a good starting position. I can't do that with octagon plates and I struggle.

I think technique is why only deadlifting light for speed doesn't work. You never have to strain where you find and can fix your form issues. Although, I don't use regular deadlifts off the floor very often. My basic training is:

Tuesday:
ME movement: squat (60%), DL (30%), or GM (10%)
SLDL up to a 5RM
Accesories
I squat most often because my squat needs the most work.

Friday:
DE squat
Low rack pull against bands up to a 3RM
Accesories
The key is the rack pulls are low so they are in my natural deadlift groove.

I go relatively heavy on two deadlift movements a week. Granted, I wouldn't recommend just jumping to it. It's something I worked up to over time.

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

some good points on the deadlift vs. no deadlift debate.

Just wanted to clear up the point about olympic lifters not being able to deadlift heavy loads. Some former olympic lifters have in fact turned to strongman competitions and have put up very impressive deadlift numbers.

Raimonds Bergmanis comes to mind with a deadlift of 815 at the Arnold Classic in 2002. He also was known to do his deadlifts with out a belt!

Recently Michael Koklyaev has been putting up some big numbers in strongman events. To my knowledge he has deadlifted 880 lbs.

I would assume that there are other olifters in the upper weight range who can pull some very impressive numbers however they simply have no interest in finding out their max deadlift.

The deadlift is just like any other lift in my opinion.....it can be developed in a number of different ways. The best way of developing a lift for person a might not be ideal for person b. Intelligent training + patience usually = results.
Just my two cents.

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

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Mike T. wrote:
Kenny, I'm a guy who listened to your articles and believed all the people saying that you could build a fantastic deadlift without pulling heavy very often. What it got me was stuck for years at a pull of the mid to high 500's. I'm sure some people wouldn't mind having a pull like that, but here's the kicker... when I started training specifically (i.e. actually deadlifting), my deadlift started moving again. Now, only a few years later, I've pulled 804 in a meet and I'm preparing to pull an IPF world record this year. It was built by deadlifting.

Hi Mike,

Aadding 300 lbs to you deadlift is beyond the ususal. Something else is going on. Were you more of a novice when you began? How much did you weigh when you pulled 500 and then pulled 800?

Also, you may not have written the program right for the no deadlift program. As I mentiioned before, when baking a cake you can have all the right ingredients but if you put in the wrong amounts, you are going come up with a cake that isn't the one you though you were making.

With that said, the bottom line what counts. So, what every your doing is working...so, keep on doing it.

Also, I would be intersted in seeing you program. I sure other would as well.

I will only address some of the issues you presented to me not to others on what you posted...unless, I disagree or want to add someing to it...Smiling

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As I read this thread, I noticed fallacy after fallacy being tossed around and I need to address it.

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2) This stuff about the DL generating more watts might be true from a physics sense, but it's not about simple physics here.

I posted research information from Dr John Garhammer on the watts per kilo comparisons between Olympic pulls vs deadlift. As I stated in the no deadlift article, Olympic pull power output is over four times greater than the deadlift.

These Olympic pulls are used to develop more pulling power in the daallift rather that strength.

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The guy who mentioned the principle of specificity is right. While a clean and a deadlift look similar, they are different. Among other issues, there are subtle technique differences with the starting position and the direction of force application that make the motor recruitment patterns different. So, while you might be generating more power in an olympic movement, it is in a manner that is not a specific as it could be.

Mike, I still contend that using the deadlift as exercise to train the deadlift is a bad idea. As I noted in another post, I am not alone in my view of this.

Dr Tom McLaughlin (PhD in biomechanics) in his book, "Bench Press More Now," belived that one should perform heavy singles in the bench press primarily as a means of working on technique.

McLaughlin stated that other auxiliary exercises that are similar in nature to the bench press should be used to develop strength.

The same can be said in regard to the squat and deadlift.

Simmons' West Side Method basically applies McLaughlin's recommendations. Load of 40-60% of 1RM are used to as a means of increasing power.

Auxiliary exercises that are similar to these lifts are utilized as a means of increasing strength.

Working with load that are 40-60% of 1RM also allow one to focus on technique. Thus, West Side elicits two training responses.

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3) The idea that the deadlift (sumo AND conventional) is not a technical lift is a gross misconception. Most sumo deadlifters get this, but people (lifters included) think conventional pulling is just "bend over, grab the bar, and pick it up."

You are addressing Stone on this issue.

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There's a lot more to it than that. For me (and many, many others), if my foot postiion is off, if my breathing is off, if I don't put my hips in the same start position every time, etc, etc, then the lift is going to be sub-par. There are just as many technique points to the deadlift as there are to the squat and bench.

Mike, as I stated technique play a role in deadlifting. The deadlift is my lift. I love it. However, there is very little technique involved in either a sumo or conventional deadlift.

Which of the powerlift is the easiest to learn? It the deadlift. That because there isn't much to learn.

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You have to be paying attention to notice them, but they are there. The point that "many do it right in meets" is incorrect. It's not just about doing it right fundamentally. It's about having your technique refined to the point where every minuscule detail (details that can't be seen by outside observers) is in place so your deadlift is the most efficient it can possibly be. This takes lots of repitition to get it ingrained to the point where it is automatic.

The deadlift doesn't take much time to learn compared to just about any other sports movement. Some repetition is required but not that much.

For those who want to practice their technique, performing singles (ala McLaughlin) is the best method.

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5) I understand where you think that many train the deadlift "too heavy, too often". I, however, think that those who DO train the DL every week often train too heavy. But by the same token, once weekly is not often enough for any lift (in my opinion). It's a popular idea now to only deadlift heavy once every 2 weeks or even once per month. And guess what -- DL numbers are in the toilet for high level powerlifters. We have guys that "squat" 1000 pounds but can't pull 600 in some cases. That's aweful and pathetic. And it comes from laziness in training the deadlift.

Part of the reason the squat and bench press have gone up so much in comparison to the deadlift is the "lifting gear." Canvas squat suits and "super" super shirts have literally added a 100 lbs to some lifters squats as well as bench.

As Mclaughlin stated, the lower back quickly and easily overtrains. So, pulling twice a week is not a good idea, unless you have an iron back...and few lifter do.

Deadlifting heavy once a week may be too much as well. That because the lower back gets worked a lot from the squat. So, if you were to squat twice a week and deadlift twice a week, you end up working you lower back four times a week.

Would you bench press four times a week? Few lifter can bench press heavy four times a week.

Simmons has questioned frequent heavy deadlift sessions. As per Louie regarding the deadlift, "Why do something that takes more than it gives back to you?"

As for being lazy, the deadlift taxes you mentally and emotionally. That in part is because no eccentric movement precedes the concentric contraction.

Pulling the weigh off the floor from a dead stop sucks the life out of you, mentally and emotionally.

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I understand that what Kenny and Rocky are advocating is pulling OL movements weekly and just DLing heavy once every other week, but that isn't the answer either.

Mike, it is the answer for most lifters. There problem is they overtain their lower back by pulling too heavy too often.

I provide two examples of lifters who increased their deadlifts by cutting back on how often they deadlift. Mike put 65 lbs on his deadlift by deadlifting once every two to three weeks.

Mike, as per your profile, you live in Santa Maria, CA. So, I assume you lift at the meets in the same area as Mike Tronski (Chino Hills, CA). Mike will be lifting at the Feb 16, USPF American Cup PL , Los Angeles.

If happen to see Mike Tronski, please ask him how his less frequent deadift training is working for him.

Tronski works out at Manny Sanchez's Orange County Strength Club. One of the best lifters in the nation, Gary Garcia trains there as well.

Gary Garcia has told Mike Tronski the same thing regarding deadlifting, not to deadlift too often. Train the deadift every two weeks or more.

Gary Garcia shows up at the meet around her in Southern CA. Speak with Gary if you get the opportunity.

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Working consistently on your deadlift is the best way to improve your deadlift. You might have to restrict the poundages that you do, but the yield will be greater.

Not so. Mike Tronski and Phil Rivera didn't make any progress with that method. Both increased their deadlift by less frequent training sessions.

It sound like that is what works for you, so you assume it will work for everyone else. That is not the case.

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6) The concept of "speeding" through your sticking point is a misconception. A max weight will move slowly. This is simple physics. If you can move a max weight quickly (i.e. acceleration is still large), then you can add more weight to the bar. So, if a max weight moves slowly, then generating more "speed" at your sticking point would be an ineffective way to improve any lift. On the other hand, making your weak ROM stronger will make your lifts go up because you can generate more force as a whole.

Mike, certainly increasing strength at you sticking point is going to help. However, if you can increase you power and speed prior to hitting you sticking point, that (as per the laws of physics) will slightly decrease the load on the bar.

As per the car and mud hold analogy. Having a larger motor (more strength) will help you get out of the mud hole.

However, the speed you generate prior to entering the mud hole (you sticking point) will provide you with the momentum you need to make it through.

7) Kenny, I agree that it isn't "easy" to pull 600, as "easy" is in relation to one's full potential. I just wanted to note that we agree on some things....

Fair enough Mike, and I have presented you my thought on it.

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8 ) Squatting before you deadlift will not necessarily "kill" your DL. It depends on how the rest of your training is constructed. My team and I did a routine where 3/4 of our DL's were done after squatting. That brought my DL up to a very easy 760. Everyone else had success with it too, but I can't remember the numbers.

I went over this in an earlier post. Be ware of trying to squat heavy and deadlift heavy on the same day.

If you decided to go heavy on both liftet on the same day, the best thing to do is do a morning squat session and and afternoon deadlift session. This would allow for better recovery. Thus, you'd pull more weight.

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9) Olympic lifts are NOT needed to train athletes. This is a big can of worms, but this video explains most of where I'm at.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOKc5KwrTgU

Few movement are as effective at developing power output in an athlete as the Olympic movements. Even Hatfield noted that in "Athletes and the Olympic Lifts."

With that stated, there are some other movements that can be used to increase your power output. One of the problems is knowing which ones they are.

Squatting with lighter loads can increase power output. However, not to the extent as the Olympic movements. Research (Garhammer) states that even with half the squat 1RM, the squat does not come close to developing the same power output as the Olympic movements.

Hatfield stated much the same in his article.

Quote:
10) Just to be clear, I'm not advocating pulling "heavy" (i.e. max effort) every week. But I am advocating pulling moderately heavy (70-90% and almost always leaving at least 1 rep in the tank, and controlling the volume) at least once per week.

One of the greatest deadlifters of the late 1970s and early 1980s was Chip McCain. I watched him pull 799 @ 198 lbs. Back then that was the record.

In an interview with McCain on deadlifting, McCain stated that he deadlifted every other week light.

I ask McCain what was light. Was if it was 80%, 70%, 60%, etc?

McCain replied that light is what feels light. McCain's light workout was for restoration. McCain listened to his body. Once the weight began to feel heavy, McCain called a day, making sure his light day was light.

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11) The low back is not easily overtrained IF it is conditioned properly throughly good training. Also, if you control the volume of your training to suit your conditioning level (in all things -- not just deadlifts), then overtraining is really not much of a concern anyway.

I guarantee with the majority of lifters, the lower back is easily overtrained. Again, let me reference McLaughlin and Simmons.

In the July 1981 Powerlifting USA article, "The Biomechanics of Powerlifting", Dr Tom McLaughlin cautioned, "...whatever you do, DON'T OVER TRAIN THE LOWER BACK. These muscles fatigue faster than almost any other muscle group in the body and also take more time to recover."

One of the most profound statements Simmons made about the deadlift is, "Why do an exercise that takes more than it gives back?"

Quote:
12) Kenny, I understand what you're saying about intensity having an influence on strength, but calling it the "key" is not a complete answer.

I believe we may have some minor, not major differences here. It not the complete answer but without intensity at some point, you have nothing.

Quote:
Pairing intensity with a volume of work is what builds strength.
Consiquently, repetitive practice of the competitive movements with good form a) builds technique and b) builds strength in a manner specific to that lift.

Again, using the lifts as exercises is a bad idea. You expose those lifts to overtraining. In pushing for that last rep, at some point, you do whatever it take to get up. In so doing, you reinforce negative behavior, bad technique.

Quote:
You are absoluely correct when you say "you lift like you train". That's the whole reason why I maintain that the olympic lifts are not the way to train for a deadlift. If you train the olympic lifts, your deadlift will be much like a clean. This is not the optimal way to deadlift.

As Vern Gambetti, a track coach, once stated, "Train slow to be slow."

Let me reiterate, the Olympic pulls are uses as a means of increasing power. The are an auxliary exericse that to some extent have some similarities to the deadlift.

Some power exercise need to be used to develop pulling power in the deadlift. If you don't like Olympic movement, then find something else that you like.

However, precisely what exercises will develop as much power as Olympic pulls? Obviously, something is better than nothing.

Perhaps "Jump Cleans" would work better. They are basically a deadlift with a jump added on. Even "Good Morning Jumps" might work...they are the same as Jump Squats only you with a Good Morning.

There are some other exercises that I could provide. And while they are are adaquate at increasing power, they don't quite provide the same training effect.

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Phew! I know that this will come off to be negative, but that's not my intention.

I found it to be an enlightening discussion...Smiling

Quote:
After training people in a variety of ways, I've found that this "Don't deadlift to improve your deadlift" stuff does not work as well as other principles.

Again, you may not have written the program correctly.

And since it didn't work for you, I assumed that you didn't use it with the others that you trained.

When many individuals try something and it does not work, they belive the fault was the program, not them. That is not necessarily the case.

Over the years, when I've tried something that did not work, I question if it was the program or me.

I found that many times it was something that I did or did not do that did not elicit the training repsonse that I wanted.

As a case in point, after taking my deadlift from 540 to 595, almost over night, I wrote a new and improved no deadlift program.

That ended up taking my deadiff the next year from my best pull of 595 to 550.

Was it the program or was it me? I kept the same incredients but modified the amounts that I put in baking my cake...see analogy above.

The next year and a half, I pulled 611lb/277.5 kg my first meet, then 617 lb/280 kg the nesxt meet and and finally 620 lbs the following meet. The 620 lbs was because the meet director didn't have any kilo plates, so we lifted in pound.

I view things like Thomas Edison. Edison didn't his experiments as failures. Edison viewed them as discarding what didn't work and moving close to the answer.

I would still like to see the training program that you use to pull 800 lbs.

I will be lifting at the CA State Meet on March 29th and probably at the Venice Beach Meet in September. Since I don't know you full name, I wouldn't know you if you were there.

So, if you see me, introduce youself and we have a passionate about this over a beer. I'll buy the first one...Smiling

Great discussion.

Kenny Croxdale

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Well, Kenny, I'm certainly glad that you didn't take what I said in a negative light. Forum discussions can quickly turn into arguments and I'm glad to see that this doesn't seem to be the case here.

As far as who I am... my name is Mike Tuchscherer. I very well might come by the USPF meet on the 29th. I might have a friend competing. I'm trying to get to as many California meets as I can before I move to North Dakota in April. If you're interested in my current training (i.e. over the last several monthes), you can find it here: http://www.irongodz.com/irongod/showthread.php?t=2524
If you're interested in my past training, let me know and I can email you everything I've got. I've got training logs that go back to when I started lifting 11 years or so ago! I should also note that I didn't go from 550 to 800 in a year or two. It was about 4 1/2 years, but that's still an average improvement of about 50 pounds per year on the deadlift alone. Also, I pull in a belt only, so there's not any gear skewing the question. I had about 6 years of experience when I pulled 550.

As far as your point of me not doing the program right, that's a possibility. It's also a possibility that the other guys you trained didn't do the higher frequency programming right.

I will say this, though. When I deadlift less frequently, my deadlift goes down. When I deadlift more frequently, my deadlift goes up. It's a very strong correlation. I don't think I'm a special case, either, because I've worked with a decent range of folks and they have all had similar results.

Now back to our discussion....

I agree with you that Olympic lifts generate more power than powerlifts, but simple power generation does not transfer directly to maximum strength improvement.

I would disagree that performing heavy singles is the best way to work on technique. Technique is developed and solidified through the use of repetitve effort. After doing 9000 squats at 80%+, you could squat in your sleep. But doing infrequent, heavy singles does not allow for this repitition to take place in a reasonable amount of time.

To say that there isn't much technique involved in the deadlift... maybe we're disagreeing on semantics here, so let me try to put it another way. There are subtle nuances to every lift. Nuances that are probably not even visible to the outside observer. Things like having your hips an inch or two too high at the start of your pull, among many other things, will make a significant impact on how well you deadlift. As I said earlier, I think the best way to make sure technique (or in this case, the subtle nuances) remain consistent is to have a very high repitition of effort. It may be easy to learn, but it is not easy to perfect.

There are a few statements that seem to get tossed around with little substantiation. Why is the lower back more easily overtrained than any other muscle? I don't think it is. I think the lower back can recover just fine if you build it's capacity to tolerate volume (done through sensible planning). Another thing that gets tossed around from time to time is how the DL is so much harder on the CNS of the athlete. I don't see how this can be true. The deadlift and the squat activate similar numbers of motor units in similar muscle groups. The DL should not be THAT much harder on the athlete's CNS (sorry, that was a tangent).

Yes, I squat twice a week and I also deadlift twice a week. I also bench press four times a week. The trick is that you have to carefully control the volume and intensity with which you train. You really can't afford to go crazy very often, but I have been able to push my total up more with this method than any other. But it's not that hard, either. If you decided you wanted to give it a try, then I'd suggest this: If you do 5x5 now, do 2x5 on one day and 3x5 on another day (using the same weight). You should recover fairly easily from that and be able to add more volume in a short amount of time. That's usually how we get people started on the higher frequency programs.

In reference to the guys you've trained... if pulling twice per week overtrains their lower back, then I reccommend that they adjust the volume and intensity of each session until they find something they can recover from (refer to the above example).

As you said earlier, it is hard to argue with results. So if your guys are improving with infrequent pulling, then more power to them. I just happen to think that they could also improve using a higher frequency approach IF it was tailored correctly. By the same token, I might be able to improve using a less frequent approach IF i did it right. It's all about tailoring the training to the current needs of the athlete. If you understand what the needs of the athlete are and you know enough about the primary and secondary effects of training, then you can write a successful program.

I understand what you mean about increasing the bar speed prior to hitting your sticking point. I agree with you in principle. It's just that I don't think it works that way in the real world. Let me ask it to you like this: If two lifters attempt to pull 405, Lifter A has a max of 455 and Lifter B has a max of 700, who will be faster with 405? Lifter B because 405 is only ~60% of his max where it is closer to 90% of Lifter A's max. So, to get fast, you must first get strong, not the other way around. Strength is the fundamental trait secondary only to hypertrophy. Power is developed after a foundation in strength.

Again, I don't doubt the ability of the Oly lifts to develop power. The thing I doubt is that 1) they develop more power than other methods (i.e. jumps) and 2) that the power is in a form directly usable to athletes. Strength is a very specific trait that is developed. That is why I don't think a clean will build a deadlift. The technique for the two lifts is different! That neccesitates that they won't trasfer directly to one another.

You said "In pushing for that last rep, at some point, you do whatever it take to get up. In so doing, you reinforce negative behavior, bad technique." I agree, but the answer is not to stop training the contest movements. The answer is to stop pushing so damn hard! Don't train to the point where your form breaks down. That's how many eastern european programs operate. Frequent practice of the competitve movement and never train even in the neighborhood of failure. Pavel calls it "greasing the groove." I've been to IPF world meets. The guys who deadlift more than anyone else are the Russians and the Ukrainians -- who also happen to train the deadlift frequently. No one would ever suggest that a sprinter only sprint infrequently or even that an Oly Weightlifter only do the snatch or C&J once in a while. Why do people suggest that powerlifters not do the powerlifts?

Anyway, this has been a good discussion! A little mental exercise never hurt anybody, did it?

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
The deadlift, sumo or conventional, does not require much technique. So, a a sumo deadlifter needing to "practice" the lift more is questionable.

What about Rickey Dale Crain's statement that out of the three powerlifts, the deadlift (sumo in his case) was the one in which he had to really "finesse" the weights up?

9-time world champion Jarmo Virtanen, also known for superb sumo-style pulls, spent countless hours working on hip flexibility and getting his shoulders as low and relaxed as possible in order to minimize the distance the bar had to travel.

I agree that the deadlift is probably often overworked, but I also think you're underestimating the role of technique -- especially at the top level of competition where minute differences determine the winner.

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

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If you're interested in my current training (i.e. over the last several monthes), you can find it here: http://www.irongodz.com/irongod/showthread.php?t=2524

Mike, I briefly scanned it. I will take a closer look at it when I have more time.

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If you're interested in my past training, let me know and I can email you everything I've got. I've got training logs that go back to when I started lifting 11 years or so ago!

I may do that.

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I should also note that I didn't go from 550 to 800 in a year or two. It was about 4 1/2 years, but that's still an average improvement of about 50 pounds per year on the deadlift alone. Also, I pull in a belt only, so there's not any gear skewing the question.

That was basiclly my point in the other post. "Gear" has added literally up to 100 lbs to some lifters squat and bench press.

That is not the case with the deadlift. Any progress that a lifter make in the deadlift has to do with an increase in strength. Not buying a better squat suit or super shirt.

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I had about 6 years of experience when I pulled 550.

Good enough.

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As far as your point of me not doing the program right, that's a possibility. It's also a possibility that the other guys you trained didn't do the higher frequency programming right.

I believe both lifters were performing deadlifts once a week heavy once a week.

As for Chip McCain, he was pulling heavy every other week.

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I will say this, though. When I deadlift less frequently, my deadlift goes down. When I deadlift more frequently, my deadlift goes up. It's a very strong correlation. I don't think I'm a special case, either, because I've worked with a decent range of folks and they have all had similar results.

Glad to hear that is working for you and some others.

However, the lower back is the hinge point. If you overtrain it, you deadlift will suffer as well as you squat and you bench to some exetent.

McLaughlin, Simmons, Gary Garcia, and myself have seen more disadvantages than improvement in training the deadlift with greater volume and frequencey.

And if you can get the same results or better, why train more. It like making money. If you can make the same amout of money working 30 hours a week as you can working 40 hours, what the point of working more?

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Now back to our discussion....

I agree with you that Olympic lifts generate more power than powerlifts, but simple power generation does not transfer directly to maximum strength improvement.

Mike, the Olympic pulls are use as a means of increasing your pulling power, not your strength. Good mornings and other exercises are use to increase your strength.

There are two basic type of muscle fiber, slow and fast twitch. However, within those muscle fiber there is a greater break down. So, you really have seven type of muscle fiber.

The IIA appear to be more dedicated to strength movements. The IIB, now being termed IIX, are geared more toward power and speed.

Olympic pulls appear to develop more of the IIX muscle fiber. Thus, by developing more of these IIX fiber, you increase you pulling power in the deadlift. While the difference in you pulling power may be slight, it's enough to get you through your sticking point, that mud hold we've discussed.

So, the benefit of Olympic pulls is in the enhancement of these "rocket" muscle fiber, the IIX.

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I would disagree that performing heavy singles is the best way to work on technique. Technique is developed and solidified through the use of repetitve effort. After doing 9000 squats at 80%+, you could squat in your sleep.

Your disagrement is not only with me on the heavy singles issue, it with Dr Tom McLaughlin a former powerlifter with a PhD in biomechanics.

Practice does make perfect only if the movement is performed perfect. Herein lies part of the problem with many lifters.

As I have stated in prior post, lifter using the lift as an exercise will "gut" out the reps as a means of incraseing the intensity of the exercise.

In doing so, they may be performing 9000 squats but not all of them will be perfect squats. The last few will be a flawed movement that becomes programmed into your central nervous system.

That is why the recommendation in performing any movement is to quit prior to your muscles becoming too tired to perform the movement correctly. Research show continueing to perform the movement incorrectly reinforces bad technique.

Is it better to peform 9000 squats with many of them executed incorrectly or to perform fewer correctly.

You don't see pole vaulters vaulting for reps. You don't see Olympic lifters jerking for reps.

McLaughlin's point is that the percentage you use to practice with changes how the muscle fire. Thus, you want to practice the movement with heavy loads.

To maintain proper form, as the research shows, you want to terminate the movement prior to your technique falling apart. Thus, with heavy loads you need to keep the reps low...so, singles or even doubles are your best choice. `

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But doing infrequent, heavy singles does not allow for this repitition to take place in a reasonable amount of time.

If you want more practice, take the weigh down and work on technique with 135 lbs if you like.

Example: I suck at the squat. Mike Adelman is one of the strongest and best technician in powerlfiting there is.

About 10 yars ago, I had Mike analyze my squat. It was depressing. The list of what I wsa doing right was shoter than the list of what I was doing wrong.

A week later, I ask Mike to re-evaluate my squat. I told Mike he'd be impressed. Mike rolled his eyes and said, "Let see it."

My technqiue was great. I squatted every day for the entire week with 135 lbs. I would do a set of bench on my bench day, then between sets would go squat 135 X 2-3 reps...working on technique.

I would watch TV and between commercials squat on a box that I had in the living room.

I even practived squatting down to get into a chair go in on a potty...ok, too much information...lol.

So, as you pointed out, the more you do it the better you get at it. Hoever, you don't need to use 80%. As you noted, repetition is the key.

Olympic lifters start out with broom sticks...etc.

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To say that there isn't much technique involved in the deadlift... maybe we're disagreeing on semantics here, so let me try to put it another way. There are subtle nuances to every lift. Nuances that are probably not even visible to the outside observer. Things like having your hips an inch or two too high at the start of your pull, among many other things, will make a significant impact on how well you deadlift. As I said earlier, I think the best way to make sure technique (or in this case, the subtle nuances) remain consistent is to have a very high repitition of effort. It may be easy to learn, but it is not easy to perfect.

Ok, let me define this a little better. There is not much technique in learning the deadlift compared to just about enything else on earth such as an Olympic pull, a back flip, etc.

While there are some nuances to the deadlift, their are as many as other movements...squat and bench press are much require a bit more than the deadlift.

In regard to hip position, usually higher is better. You can quater squat more than you can full squat. A higher hip position allows you to drive more weight up. However, we may simply be misunderstanding each other on this issue.

And if you don't know what to look for, the lifter may be performing high repetitions with poor technique...reinforcing bad technnique.

With that stated, it harder to screw up a deadlift compared to a power clean, squat, etc. The learning curve on a deadlift is much faster, easier compared to just about any other movement.

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There are a few statements that seem to get tossed around with little substantiation. Why is the lower back more easily overtrained than any other muscle? I don't think it is. I think the lower back can recover just fine if you build it's capacity to tolerate volume (done through sensible planning).

The concensius from the McLaughline, Simmons, Garcia and other experts in the field contradicts your. So, you arguement is not just with me, it with those such as McLaughlin with a PhD in biomechanics as wella a vetrans such as Simmons, Garcia and others.

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Another thing that gets tossed around from time to time is how the DL is so much harder on the CNS of the athlete. I don't see how this can be true. The deadlift and the squat activate similar numbers of motor units in similar muscle groups. The DL should not be THAT much harder on the athlete's CNS (sorry, that was a tangent).

I suspect the reasoning is that a much greater demand is placed on the ower back...and as we've discussed, the lower back is more susceptable to overtraining.

In fact, lower back problems are one of the most common problem to athletes vs leg problems. Why is that?

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Yes, I squat twice a week and I also deadlift twice a week. I also bench press four times a week.

You are the exception to the rule, then. Few can train like that.

One of the exceptions was Jim Williams. He benched 675 back in the late 1960s. You might be interested in looking at his bench program. I found it fascination. Williams benched pretty heavy four times a week!

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The trick is that you have to carefully control the volume and intensity with which you train. You really can't afford to go crazy very often, but I have been able to push my total up more with this method than any other. But it's not that hard, either. If you decided you wanted to give it a try, then I'd suggest this: If you do 5x5 now, do 2x5 on one day and 3x5 on another day (using the same weight). You should recover fairly easily from that and be able to add more volume in a short amount of time. That's usually how we get people started on the higher frequency programs.

Your program looks similar to Williams. While William training was more frequent on the bench his the volume was lower.

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In reference to the guys you've trained... if pulling twice per week overtrains their lower back, then I reccommend that they adjust the volume and intensity of each session until they find something they can recover from (refer to the above example).

As I noted in the prrevious post, they were deadlifting once a week and having probem...not twice a week.

Mike Tronski has gone from conventional to sumo. Mike found that his lower back recovers faster with the sumo than the conventional. That makes sense.

Research shows the firing sequence in the conventional dealift is back-leg-bback. The lower back initiateds the drive off the floor, then the legs kick in with the lower back finishing it.

With sumo the firing sequence is lsgs-back.

The "Would Healing" there come into play with any movement. The greater the damage, the greater the recovery time. What exercises and the intensity utilized during this time determine if you are back at 100% or below.

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As you said earlier, it is hard to argue with results. So if your guys are improving with infrequent pulling, then more power to them. I just happen to think that they could also improve using a higher frequency approach IF it was tailored correctly. By the same token, I might be able to improve using a less frequent approach IF i did it right. It's all about tailoring the training to the current needs of the athlete. If you understand what the needs of the athlete are and you know enough about the primary and secondary effects of training, then you can write a successful program.

Yes, the bottom line is results.

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I understand what you mean about increasing the bar speed prior to hitting your sticking point. I agree with you in principle. It's just that I don't think it works that way in the real world. Let me ask it to you like this: If two lifters attempt to pull 405, Lifter A has a max of 455 and Lifter B has a max of 700, who will be faster with 405?

This is not a good example. What both lifters have the same limit strength while one lifter has more power output. Which lifter is most likely to slide through his sticking point?

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Lifter B because 405 is only ~60% of his max where it is closer to 90% of Lifter A's max. So, to get fast, you must first get strong, not the other way around.

Strength is the foundation on which power and sped are built. I stated is in a previous post and many other as well.

However, if one continues to only work limit strength, research shows that power and speed diminish. That in part due to a greater number of IIA muscle fiber being developed while the number of IIX muscle fiber diminished.

Hatfield noted this as well in stating that in "the old days" coaches who stated that lifting heavy weights make you slow were not totally wrong.

Mike, I can provide you with the research data on this as well. Dr John Garhammer has an excellent paper on this...and there are other research articles on this, too.

Strength is the fundamental trait secondary only to hypertrophy. Power is developed after a foundation in strength.

What happens is this becomes a juggling act for every athlete...much like baking the cake. Combining the right amout of strength, power and seed training to evoke the desired training effect...meaning being at the top of your game.

Hypertrophy comes in second to power, not the other way around. Only if your a lineman or liinebacker in football (or similar instances) does size come into play.

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Again, I don't doubt the ability of the Oly lifts to develop power. The thing I doubt is that 1) they develop more power than other methods (i.e. jumps)

Then show me the data on it. I have provide you with research from Garhammer on this. Let me once more reiterate what Garhammer stated. the even with lighter loads movement such as squat and jump squats do NOT rival the power outputs of the Olympic movements.

Dr Mike Stone, formerly with the US Olympic Training Center in Colorado Springs, noted the power output of shot putters rivaled Olympic lifter.

What research data to you have to substantiate you clam that jump squats produce the same power output as Olympic movements?

Even better, purchase purchase "The Power Factor Computer" from liftinglarge.com for $85 and make your own determination.

I have found "The Power Factor Computer" to be educational. It provide you with a ball park figure of watt output. Mike Adelmann sells it.

In my discussion with Adelmann on purchasing it, I stated that as a seasoned vetran, "I know power when I see it. I can determine the right load precentage."

Adelmann's reply was, "No. You think you know but you don't." That sold me.

What I found out was the I was able to produce much greatert power outputs with slightly greater loads in the jumps squat and bench press throw.

See "Plyometric Bench Press Training For More Strength and Power [http://www.strengthcats.com/plyobenchpress.htm] and "Squatting: To Be Explosive, Train Explosvie" for more details on the use of plyoetric for powerlifting.

So, I do advocated jump squat and bench press throw as a means of increasing power in the power lifts.

Olympic pulls is just another tool in your tool box. The effect is greater development of power.

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and 2) that the power is in a form directly usable to athletes. Strength is a very specific trait that is developed. That is why I don't think a clean will build a deadlift. The technique for the two lifts is different! That neccesitates that they won't trasfer directly to one another.

Mike, you missing the point. Perhaps I that is my fault for not explaining it better.

Again, the Olympic movement are uses as a means of increasing the IIX muscle fiber for you deadlift.

If we went by your definition, strength training wouldn't be worth much to a football player because the movements don't specifically replicate the movements in foot ball. But that is not the case.

The strength as well as the power developed in squat and power cleans provides athletes with greater strength ane power on the playing field.

Research show that one power cleans are better at developing sprint speed than squat. I can provide that research.

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You said "In pushing for that last rep, at some point, you do whatever it take to get up. In so doing, you reinforce negative behavior, bad technique." I agree, but the answer is not to stop training the contest movements. The answer is to stop pushing so damn hard! Don't train to the point where your form breaks down.

Exactly. However, the problem lies with using the lift as an exercise. As ong you stop once the movement deteriates.

But by doing so, you limit the intensity in which you train. And intensity is the the main key to increasing strength. That is why strength trainng is regarded to be at 85% plus of 1RM.

At some point you want to push a movement to failure to increase strength. That is not a problme with auxiliary exerices. Trash the exercise then recycle with another auxiliary exercise.

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That's how many eastern european programs operate.

Not so, The Bulgarian lifts push the limit of the movement but stop it once it deteriates.

The Bulgarians have been quoted as using higher training percentages than the Russians, but that is not true.

The Russians base their training percentages off their competition max. Thus, their training percentages appear to be lower than the Bulgarians.

The Bulgarians training percentages are based off their trainng max, NOT their competition max. Thus, their training percentages appeart to much higher in comparison to the Russinas and others. Dr Michale Yessis "Secretes of Soviet Sports..."
[http://www.amazon.com/Secrets-Soviet-sports-fitness-training/dp/0877959005] Great book!

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Frequent practice of the competitve movement and never train even in the neighborhood of failure. Pavel calls it "greasing the groove."

Pavel went over this yesterday at his kettlebell clinic that I attended. I agree, you need to practice but I have already provided you with how to do that.

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I've been to IPF world meets. The guys who deadlift more than anyone else are the Russians and the Ukrainians -- who also happen to train the deadlift frequently. No one would ever suggest that a sprinter only sprint infrequently or even that an Oly Weightlifter only do the snatch or C&J once in a while. Why do people suggest that powerlifters not do the powerlifts?

You have to ask them, not me since I am not a proponet of it.

Also, I can't comment on their program since I am not totally familiar with it.

It sounds simiilar to the "Finish Deadlift" workout that came out in the 1980s. Many a lifter overtrained with this methods.

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Anyway, this has been a good discussion! A little mental exercise never hurt anybody, did it?

Agreed.

Let me provide you with some ammunition for you philosophy of frequence and volume.

Jay Schroder, a brilliant strenth coach that I admire, is an advocated of high frequence and volume training. I quoted information from Jay in the plyometric bench press article.

In discussing frequence and volume with Jay, he noted that Jim William trained heavy four times a week. I then remembered reading about Williams program in a book that I have.

That book is "The Bench Press" by Dr Judd [http://www.drjudd.net/v2/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2&products_id=2&zenid=2c9aa0a911fd9e4e541dbf9c91dc42b5]

"The Bench Press" examine the routines of some of the greatest bench pressers, every. Williams is one of them.

Until next time...Smiling

Kenny Croxdale

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

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Juhani Virtanen wrote:
Kenny Croxdale wrote:
The deadlift, sumo or conventional, does not require much technique. So, a a sumo deadlifter needing to "practice" the lift more is questionable.

What about Rickey Dale Crain's statement that out of the three powerlifts, the deadlift (sumo in his case) was the one in which he had to really "finesse" the weights up?

The squat requires more "finesse" more learning. Which lift take less time to learn correctly for a beginning powerlifter, a squat or deadlift?

I guarantee you it the squat. Ricky's a smart guy but his statement does not make sense.

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9-time world champion Jarmo Virtanen, also known for superb sumo-style pulls, spent countless hours working on hip flexibility and getting his shoulders as low and relaxed as possible in order to minimize the distance the bar had to travel.

So, it works for him. We can agree on that.

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I agree that the deadlift is probably often overworked, but I also think you're underestimating the role of technique -- especially at the top level of competition where minute differences determine the winner.

...minute difference determine the winner" in every aspect of every sport. If you technique is perfect but you strength is sub par...that could be considered a somewhat "minute difference.'

"The whole is greater than the sum of it parts." What good is strength without some technique or vise versa?

The point is that the deadlift never has been nor ever will be a hard to lear movement. It easier to get them on the road to deadlifting correctly than squatting or benching.

Kenny Croxdale

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Kenny Croxdale wrote:
The squat requires more "finesse" more learning. Which lift take less time to learn correctly for a beginning powerlifter, a squat or deadlift?

I guarantee you it the squat...

On a personal level I most definitely agree with this. To me deadlifting (conventional) has always felt natural and simple, while the squat is infinitely more difficult! Smiling

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Why limit your training because you have poor working capacity for lower back training? Why not increase the working capacity of your lower back? Finland has produced an unusually high number of great deadlifters for it's size. The higher working capacity is a major reason why.

I trained with no belt on deadlifts and squats for about a year. Now I can train my lower back at a higher intensity and frequency than most. If I had worked around the lower back weakness, then it'd still be limiting my training.

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

I couldn't agree, more Marcus!

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Kenny,

First of all, thanks for the thoughtful reply. I'll try to address your points going from the top down....

In reference to needing high repitition of effort to devolop technique, you said, "Your disagrement is not only with me on the heavy singles issue, it with Dr Tom McLaughlin a former powerlifter with a PhD in biomechanics." Then, I guess in that case I disagree with, you, him, and his PhD. My point is that if you do thousands of reps with a moderately heavy weight, and always stop before technique breaks down, then using proper form with heavy weight will be automatic. Learning proper form with heavy weight (i.e. using singles to reinforce form) is not a good way to learn for precisely the reasons that you outlined. So, yeah, I guess I think the good doctor is wrong.

Boris Sheiko, the famous Russian powerlifting coach has trained many, many lifters to become international champions using this method. If you have ever seen these lifters, they are all technically perfect and fast. They do no kind of "speed" work, be it o-lifts or dynamic method ala Westside. They use consistent practice of the competitive lifts and never take them to failure.

You don't see pole vaulters vaulting for reps... duh. Conceptually, how would this even be possible? And you do see O-lifters train with sets of 2-3 from time to time. However, because of the highly technical nature of their lifts, rep-based training becomes less practical. But I will tell you what you DON'T see... you absolutely don't see a pole vaulter training to vault higher by performing primarily high jumps. You don't see an O-lifter preparing for a PR Snatch by doing jump-squats. Why, then, would you prepare for a deadlift by performing a Good Morning, or any other "assistance" exercise?

I will agree with McLaughlin that the load used changes how the muscle fires. This is why I believe that doing cleans, speed squats, etc, will not carry over to the competitve movement. However, loads over 80% have a highly similar recruitment pattern to maximum effort loads. The difference is that you can do many sets at 80% (if you don't train to failure), but only a few at 90-95%.

I agree that singles and doubles are good for PL training. I would also add triples. I never said anything to contradict this.

Your example of practicing the technique for your squat illustrates my point rather well. Frequent practice helped your technique. But, add in the information regarding muscle recruitment patterns from above, and if you had trained frequently (while controlling the volume and intensity to recoverable levels), then I truely believe you would become a more efficient squatter with heavier loads and have a greater 1RM to boot. Maybe you needed to start at this point because your form was that bad -- I don't know. But after you got to the point where you could squat with moderate weights and good form, I think you should do that instead.

You said my thought that the low back is not easily overtrained contradicts McLaughlin, Louie Simmons, and others. Well, by the same token, their view contradicts me, Boris Shieko, the athletes that Sheiko has trained, and others. Also, I think you may be misunderstanding Louie. Louie trains his back multiple times per week, so I don't think he feels that the lower back itself is easily overtrained, just that the deadlift overtrains the lower back. I know, I know, Louie said why do an exercise that takes more than it gives.... You wouldn't do such an exercise, but no exercise has to be like this. It's how the deadlift is performed that leads to this condition (i.e. too much volume and/or intensity too frequently).

I train frequently because I choose to control the variables of my training. I won't lie, it takes discipline. But to say I'm just some genetic miracle is not 100% true. Many train on high frequency programs and make great gains. Most people that use a properly fitted Sheiko program make great gains. Ask Eric Talmant. He told me that he has around 50 clients that correspond with him regularly and nearly all have had good results. These programs operate with similar frequency/volume/intensity pairings that I am reccommending.

My example of one lifter who pulls 455 and one that pulls 700 was not to your liking. Okay. Even per your reccomendations that I consider and example where they both have equal limit strength, the result is the same. Consider this: If you have 2 lifters who both 1RM 500. Lifter A lifts his in 2 seconds while Lifter B lifts his in .5 seconds. Yes, lifter B generated more power, but who cares? In powerlifting, the only thing that matters is the weight on the bar. It doesn't matter if he slid through his sticking point or had to grind through it.

Hypertrophy provides the foundation for strength. Strength provides the foundation for Power. Whether athletes 'need' size or not is irrelevant. If you maximize your strength potential for a certain muscle, you must increase it's cross section (size) to further your potential strength gain. That will provide the foundation for a subsequent increase in power. That's why periodized programs are written the way that they are.

BTW, I wasn't suggesting Squat Jumps provide more power than a clean. I was suggesting Depth Jumps provide more power output than a snatch or clean. With an amortization phase as short as it is, I can't imagine how it wouldn't be true, although I don't have any hard data on it.

Weight training is GPP for athletes because it DOES NOT directly correlate to sports performance. If Weightlifting made one a better fooball player, then why aren't good football players coming from the Olympic Training Center? And if Weightlifting improved a football player's gameplay, then the two activities must have a high dynamic correspondance, which would neccesitate that playing football would make you a better weightlifter. If that were the case, why don't football players just show up and win a gold medal in Olympic weightlifting. The answer is because the two activities have a very low dynamic correspondance to one another. Weightlifting is GPP for football players. By the same token, Cleans might be GPP for the deadlift, but that doesn't directly improve the deadlift. Otherwise, a good deadlifter would be good a power cleans and vice versa. That is only marginally true.

Stopping short of failure only slightly limits the intensity with which you can train. You should still be able to maintain perfect form with a 90% single. There's not alot of need to go heavier than that in training. Soviet research indicated that strength gains were best at an average intensity of 70% plus or minus 2% (when counting all lifts over 50%). Not alot of need to go higher than 90%.

I said a lot of eastern european programs operate using this method. Not all of them, but a lot.

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I've been to IPF world meets. The guys who deadlift more than anyone else are the Russians and the Ukrainians -- who also happen to train the deadlift frequently. No one would ever suggest that a sprinter only sprint infrequently or even that an Oly Weightlifter only do the snatch or C&J once in a while. Why do people suggest that powerlifters not do the powerlifts?

You have to ask them, not me since I am not a proponet of it.

Also, I can't comment on their program since I am not totally familiar with it.

It sounds simiilar to the "Finish Deadlift" workout that came out in the 1980s. Many a lifter overtrained with this methods.

You are suggesting infrequent practice of the competitive movement for Powerlifting. However, no one would suggest that a sprinter only sprint once in a while or that an olympic weightlifter only perform their competition lift on occasion. That's the basis of my question. I'm unfamiliar with the "Finish Deadlift" workout, but by the sounds of it, it was a cookie cutter out of PLUSA in the 80's. Tisk tisk.

Anyway, I hope this was easy enough to follow. I look forward to your response!

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

quote]My point is that if you do thousands of reps with a moderately heavy weight, and always stop before technique breaks down, then using proper form with heavy weight will be automatic.

While stopping the movement prior to exhausting the muscles involved insures better technique, it does not build strength.

Also, using moverately heavy weight with the movement does not mean you'll use proper form with heavy weigth. Even you have acknowledged that the muslces fire differently with differently loads, as McLaughlin has noted. Dr Per Tesch went over that as well in "Strength and Power in Sport."

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Learning proper form with heavy weight (i.e. using singles to reinforce form) is not a good way to learn for precisely the reasons that you outlined.

Heavy sub max singles develop technique as long as you stop performint tthem prior to exhaustion. That has been my constant stand.

Nothing works once the muscle is exhausted, be it moderate heavy loads or heavy loads.

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Boris Sheiko

I am familiar with the program. As Mike Burgner, Olympic Lifting coach, stated in one of his USA Weightlifting Club Coach seminars that some athletes respond to high volume/lower load vs high intensity/lower volume work.

So, someone like you appear to do better with the volume approach.

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You don't see pole vaulters vaulting for reps... duh.

LOL...so, you got that point.

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Conceptually, how would this even be possible?

Mike, think of it this way. A set of 5 reps in a squat means the lifter perform five squats basically with no rest.

A pole vaulter could perform reps the same way. After clearing the bar, he immediatley runs back and performs another vault, performing them five times without stopping.

What do you think is form would be the last rep?

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And you do see O-lifters train with sets of 2-3 from time to time. However, because of the highly technical nature of their lifts, rep-based training becomes less practical.

That would work for powerlifters. Why not peform some sub max heavy singles and then drop the load down and perform some moderately heavy sets of 2=3 rpes.

Even better do cluster/rest pause sets. APT is one of the prime reasons strength drops. Fifty percent of APT is restored in approximately 30 seoncds.

By performing a single or double with the lift and allowing a 30 second recover period, you'd insure better technique.

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But I will tell you what you DON'T see... you absolutely don't see a pole vaulter training to vault higher by performing primarily high jumps.

Pole vaulterd perform plyometric jumps, as do all track and field athletes. So, to some extend they do high juimps.

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You don't see an O-lifter preparing for a PR Snatch by doing jump-squats.

Olympic lifters perform jumps with power snatches and power cleans as a means of increasing power. Olympic lifter perfom plyometric jumps as wll as a menas of enhacing their lifts.

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Why, then, would you prepare for a deadlift by performing a Good Morning, or any other "assistance" exercise?

As I have stated, Good Mornings work the same muscle groups involved in the deadlift. The movement is similar in nature to the deadlift.

Performing Good Mornings allows push the exericse to the limit as a means of increasing strength. Moderlay heavy loads in the deadlift stopping short of exhaustion does not allow strength to be fully developed in these muscle groups.

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I will agree with McLaughlin that the load used changes how the muscle fires.

And that is why your moderately heavy loads are not as effective as the use of heavier singles. Again, why not do both.

Perform sub max heavy singles and then drop down to moderately heavy loads of 2-3 reps?

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This is why I believe that doing cleans, speed squats, etc, will not carry over to the competitve movement.

As I have stated, the use of cleans, speed squats are use to develop the IIX muscle fiber. Development of these IIX fiber allow you to get through your sticking point. See my previous post.

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However, loads over 80% have a highly similar recruitment pattern to maximum effort loads. The difference is that you can do many sets at 80% (if you don't train to failure), but only a few at 90-95%.

Again, as you agreed with above, the muscle involvement changes with load. The use of 80% is not as effective as loads in the 90% range.

Why not peform sub max heavy singles and then drop down to you 80% load for 2-3 reps?

I agree that singles and doubles are good for PL training. I would also add triples.

Fine.

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Your example of practicing the technique for your squat illustrates my point rather well. Frequent practice helped your technique. But, add in the information regarding muscle recruitment patterns from above, and if you had trained frequently (while controlling the volume and intensity to recoverable levels), then I truely believe you would become a more efficient squatter with heavier loads and have a greater 1RM to boot. Maybe you needed to start at this point because your form was that bad --I don't know. But after you got to the point where you could squat with moderate weights and good form, I think you should do that instead.

My form was bad. I used the lighter load because I wsa squatting every day. While my form got better, it didn't completely carry over to the heavier loads.

So, I agree with you that I should have used heavier loads.

However, you statement reinforces that one should at some point perform some heavy singles since they are going to develop one technique much better than the moderatly heavy loads that you suggest.

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Louie trains his back multiple times per week, so I don't think he feels that the lower back itself is easily overtrained, just that the deadlift overtrains the lower back. I know, I know, Louie said why do an exercise that takes more than it gives....

Heavy deadlifting does overtraining the lower back. I agree.

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You wouldn't do such an exercise, but no exercise has to be like this. It's how the deadlift is performed that leads to this condition (i.e. too much volume and/or intensity too frequently).

Yes, it comes down to how heavy you train the deadlift. The lower back takes a bit of a beating with heavy squats. So, that take something out of the lower back.

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I train frequently because I choose to control the variables of my training. I won't lie, it takes discipline.

Mike, "it take dicipline" can be applied to the higher intensity/lower volume training as well. I take dicipline to push oneself be in with in performing volume or intensity.

Those who are successful in any part of life go the "extra mile" that others don't.

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But to say I'm just some genetic miracle is not 100% true. Many train on high frequency programs and make great gains. Most people that use a properly fitted Sheiko program make great gains.

The same can be said for the higher intensity/lower volume training. As we agree, results are all that count.

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Hypertrophy provides the foundation for strength.

That is not true unless you have uncovered some new research on this. If so, please provide it.

Research show that initial gains in any novice program come via the central nervous system.

While hypertrophy/adding size can help it not he foundation on which strength is build.

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Strength provides the foundation for Power.

Yes, I have noted that in my articles.

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Whether athletes 'need' size or not is irrelevant.

This appears to be a contradiction of your "hyertrophy if the foundation of strength" statement."

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BTW, I wasn't suggesting Squat Jumps provide more power than a clean. I was suggesting Depth Jumps provide more power output than a snatch or clean. With an amortization phase as short as it is, I can't imagine how it wouldn't be true, although I don't have any hard data on it.

There is no data that I have found that would support you claim that depth jumps evoke a greater output than a snatch or clean.

The Olympic movement are at the top of the "food chain" for power development. That is why they are incorporated into an athletes "power traiing" program.

I am an advocated of depth jumps but they do not produce more or the same power output as the Olympic movemente.

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Weight training is GPP for athletes because it DOES NOT directly correlate to sports performance.

Correct. Agan, Olympic movements are used as a means on developing IIX muscle fiber. See my post above.

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If Weightlifting made one a better fooball player, then why aren't good football players coming from the Olympic Training Center?

The best Olympic lifters are playing in the NFL. I noted this in a previous discussion on this.

You can make over a million a year playing football and maybe $40,000 a year as an Olympic lifter. Add to that the kids grow up playing football, being an NFL player is like being a rock star, etc.

You find a lot more good football coaches and football program in the USA that in Olympic lifting.

The greatest potential Olympic lifers are playing football for those reasons.

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And if Weightlifting improved a football player's gameplay, then the two activities must have a high dynamic correspondance, which would neccesitate that playing football would make you a better weightlifter.

Some of the positions in football require the same physical attributes as Olympic lifting...strength and power. So, some of that translates both ways.

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If that were the case, why don't football players just show up and win a gold medal in Olympic weightlifting. The answer is because the two activities have a very low dynamic correspondance to one another.

Obviously, you'd need to learn the Olympic lifts. However, playing some football in could be considered GPP for Olympic lifters.

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Weightlifting is GPP for football players. By the same token, Cleans might be GPP for the deadlift, but that doesn't directly improve the deadlift.

See my previous post on how the Olympic movements are used as a means of developing IIX muscle fiber, increasing your pulling power in the deadlift.

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Otherwise, a good deadlifter would be good a power cleans and vice versa. That is only marginally true.

So, you would conede there is some carry over.

The problem with deadlifters not being good at Olympic pulls is their lack of power in the second pull. See my previous post as to the conversion of IIA to IIX muscle fiber and vise versa.

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Stopping short of failure only slightly limits the intensity with which you can train.

So, it does limit it.

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You should still be able to maintain perfect form with a 90% single.

Thne why not add some single to your workout, us them in cluster sets.

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There's not alot of need to go heavier than that in training. Soviet research indicated that strength gains were best at an average intensity of 70% plus or minus 2% (when counting all lifts over 50%). Not alot of need to go higher than 90%.

What we've all leanred from the Bulgarians is you can make some really strong athletes if you crank up the intensity.

Bulgaria at one time dominated the world of Olympic lifting because of their high intensity methods.

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No one would ever suggest that a sprinter only sprint infrequently

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However, no one would suggest that a sprinter only sprint once in a while or that an olympic weightlifter only perform their competition lift on occasion. That's the basis of my question.

The Bulgarian Olympic lifters limit their training time per training sessions which limits their "practice time." However, what they do is perform multiple training sessions in a day. Thus, getting more practice while allowing the to recovery better for those heavy sessions of singles, doubles, etc.

Also, Olympic lifting is a much more technical than powerlifting especially the deadlift. The deadlift is a lot like rinding a bike.

However, if one does struggle with the deadlift form, then more practice is a good thing.

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I'm unfamiliar with the "Finish Deadlift" workout, but by the sounds of it, it was a cookie cutter out of PLUSA in the 80's.

As you mentiond, you are unfamiliar with it. It is no more of a cookie cutter program than Shieko or any other program.

You don't appear to be an advocate of speed/power training. You don't apear to see much point its effectiveness in the pwoerlfits.

Why does it work for those using the West Side Method or the complex training program that I perform?

Why am I able to pull in the 600 lbs range and never deadlfit prior to a meet. I have a 617 lb record deadlift in the NSCA New Mexico State Record and a 595 in the USPF CA State Records. They are public files.

Why is it that Mike Tronski and Phil Rivera increased their deadlifts 65 lbs and 40 lbs by ony deadlifting once every two to four weeks?

Mike, as you stated, results are all that count. And as Mike Burgner said, some athleetes respond to volume better than intensity.

However, some type of power/speed training would help even the Sheiko clan. I guarantee that.

I provided you with some great reading sources: Supertraining, Fundamentals of Special Strength, Dr Judd's Bench Press book that goes into Jim Williams' program (which supports you volume belief).

Tom McLaughlin's Bench Press More Now, Dr John Garhammer's research article on power outputs of Olympic lifters and powerlifters.

You make assertiions with your depth jumps provide more power output than Olympic pulls, etc. However, you have yet to provide any research on anything so far.

So, one of my request is (as I did) provide some research data that supports some on the information you have provided...or some empricial data article.

I don't believe that is an unreasonable request.

Good lifting to you,

Kenny Croxdale

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Kenny,

After not seeing this topic for a few days and now coming back to it, I think we are actually closer to agreement than we might have initially thought. I think part of the reason for the misunderstanding has been our use of vague terms. I'll try to be more clear in this post...

Stopping the movement before "exhausting the muscle" will still build strength. This is why the best powerlifters don't train to failure. You get stronger without taxing your recovery abilities too much.

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Also, using moverately heavy weight with the movement does not mean you'll use proper form with heavy weigth. Even you have acknowledged that the muslces fire differently with differently loads, as McLaughlin has noted. Dr Per Tesch went over that as well in "Strength and Power in Sport."

Allow me to re-phrase: I believe that sub-80% weights probably have little carryover in terms of technique to a near-limit weight. But, I do feel that weights in the 80-95% range (including singles/doubles at 90-95%) will carry over very, very well in terms of strength and technique.

Here is where we may disagree: I feel that the best way for this technique work to carry over to the competitve lift is to perform the competitive lift while doing it. If one cycles the volume and intensity with attention to detail and care, then there is no reason that the competitve movements would then become overtrained.

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Heavy sub max singles develop technique as long as you stop performint tthem prior to exhaustion. That has been my constant stand.

Nothing works once the muscle is exhausted, be it moderate heavy loads or heavy loads.

I agree with you.

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I am familiar with the program.

Perhaps this is a typo, but if you are familiar with "the" program, then you are not nearly as familiar as you think you are. I don't mean that to sound negative, but it's true.

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So, someone like you appear to do better with the volume approach.

I also agree with you here. Different people need different combinations of volume vs intensity. I do better with the volume approach while others do better with intensity. However, I think that it is probably only very extreme circumstances where a lifter NEEDS to lower their frequency to once or twice per month if they are programming their training properly.

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That would work for powerlifters. Why not peform some sub max heavy singles and then drop the load down and perform some moderately heavy sets of 2=3 rpes.

Even better do cluster/rest pause sets. APT is one of the prime reasons strength drops. Fifty percent of APT is restored in approximately 30 seoncds.

By performing a single or double with the lift and allowing a 30 second recover period, you'd insure better technique.

That actually sounds like a good idea. And honestly, the Sheiko programs operate in a similar manner to this. A double with 80% is not difficult in and of itself. Performing 5 doubles with about 2 minutes between sets can get challenging, depending on the lifter's classification. The challenge needs to be there in order for development to take place, but it shouldn't break the lifter down. That's the idea of this sort of programming. (As a side not, I personally am not a big proponet of the Sheiko programs themselves, but I do like them in principle and they do provide a common reference for us to look at.)

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But I will tell you what you DON'T see... you absolutely don't see a pole vaulter training to vault higher by performing primarily high jumps.

Pole vaulterd perform plyometric jumps, as do all track and field athletes. So, to some extend they do high juimps.

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You don't see an O-lifter preparing for a PR Snatch by doing jump-squats.

Olympic lifters perform jumps with power snatches and power cleans as a means of increasing power. Olympic lifter perfom plyometric jumps as wll as a menas of enhacing their lifts.

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Why, then, would you prepare for a deadlift by performing a Good Morning, or any other "assistance" exercise?

As I have stated, Good Mornings work the same muscle groups involved in the deadlift. The movement is similar in nature to the deadlift.

Performing Good Mornings allows push the exericse to the limit as a means of increasing strength. Moderlay heavy loads in the deadlift stopping short of exhaustion does not allow strength to be fully developed in these muscle groups.

I don't want it to seem like I oppose assistance exercises. I do Good Mornings also. But I feel that they should take an assistance role. The classical lifts should still be performed. Olympic Weightlifters spend the majority of their time doing their competitve lifts. They spend time on other things, too, such as pulls and squats, but these things take an assisting role to the training of the competitve lift.

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I will agree with McLaughlin that the load used changes how the muscle fires.

And that is why your moderately heavy loads are not as effective as the use of heavier singles. Again, why not do both.

Perform sub max heavy singles and then drop down to moderately heavy loads of 2-3 reps?

I agree. Depending on how the volumes and intensities are cycled, I think doing both would be a fantastic idea.

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However, loads over 80% have a highly similar recruitment pattern to maximum effort loads. The difference is that you can do many sets at 80% (if you don't train to failure), but only a few at 90-95%.

Again, as you agreed with above, the muscle involvement changes with load. The use of 80% is not as effective as loads in the 90% range.

Why not peform sub max heavy singles and then drop down to you 80% load for 2-3 reps?

I am referring to loads of 50-60% (i.e. traditional speed work) that have little carryover, which you agreed with. Loads of 80%+ actually have a very similar recuritment pattern to heavier singles. Obviously, the heavier, the more identical the recruitment pattern, but that also presents problems with overtraining. I see it much like Doc's ABC workouts. While work in the 90% range might be your "bread and butter" so to speak, training at 80-85% between the 90% workouts 1) also provides a sigificant training effect and 2) refines technique so the 90% work can become even more effective.

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But to say I'm just some genetic miracle is not 100% true. Many train on high frequency programs and make great gains. Most people that use a properly fitted Sheiko program make great gains.

The same can be said for the higher intensity/lower volume training. As we agree, results are all that count.

I agree in principle. The problem comes from what is termed "high volume" vs "low volume". Again, I *think* we are closer to agreement than we might think.

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Hypertrophy provides the foundation for strength.

That is not true unless you have uncovered some new research on this. If so, please provide it.

Research show that initial gains in any novice program come via the central nervous system.

While hypertrophy/adding size can help it not he foundation on which strength is build.

You are misunderstanding me. All things being equal, what has more strength potential, a large muscle or a small muscle? Why are heavy powerlifters (more muscle mass) stonger than light powerlifters (less muscle mass)? This isn't a new idea. And while I agree with you that a novice's gains are based on neuromuscular efficiency improvements, that does not invalidate that hypertrophy provides a foundation to build strength.

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Whether athletes 'need' size or not is irrelevant.

This appears to be a contradiction of your "hyertrophy if the foundation of strength" statement."

I am not in contradiction. This statement was in reference to your earlier response that only Offensive Linemen and a few others need to be concerned with Hypertrophy. For example, if a lifter has maximized his neuromuscular efficiency at a certain muscular cross section, he must increase his cross section (i.e. hypertrophy) if he wants his strength gains to further improve, even if it means he must move up a weight class (i.e. regardless of whether or not he "needs" to improve size -- I know, that was an awkward way of saying it).

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BTW, I wasn't suggesting Squat Jumps provide more power than a clean. I was suggesting Depth Jumps provide more power output than a snatch or clean. With an amortization phase as short as it is, I can't imagine how it wouldn't be true, although I don't have any hard data on it.

There is no data that I have found that would support you claim that depth jumps evoke a greater output than a snatch or clean.

The Olympic movement are at the top of the "food chain" for power development. That is why they are incorporated into an athletes "power traiing" program.

I am an advocated of depth jumps but they do not produce more or the same power output as the Olympic movemente.

Okay, I will take your word for it. But I do have a question for you... why does the mechanical "power" generated by a movement matter at all? So you can generate a bunch of watts with a clean. Why do you care? If you develop the IIX fibers for that specific motor pattern, but then don't compete using that motor pattern, all you have really done is GPP. Which then begs the question, why such a focus on this form of GPP when a wider variety could be used, thus further developing your base?

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If Weightlifting made one a better fooball player, then why aren't good football players coming from the Olympic Training Center?

The best Olympic lifters are playing in the NFL. I noted this in a previous discussion on this.

Yes, but my point was that if Weightlifting develops good fooball players, then why don't good football players come from the Olympic Training Center instead of football teams? The answer (which I hope is not offensively obvious) is that one must practice a particular sport or discipline in order to achieve high results at that discipline. I think we are in agreement on this.

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Some of the positions in football require the same physical attributes as Olympic lifting...strength and power. So, some of that translates both ways.

Yes, some of it does, but I think you are underestimating the specificity of strength. A strong clean *may* increase potential, but a lineman will only be explosive off the line if he practices specifically.

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So, you would conede there is some carry over.

Yes. I would also concede that there is a carryover from Leg Press to Squats among low level lifters, but at some point, an athlete needs to differentiate between GPP and SPP.

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Stopping short of failure only slightly limits the intensity with which you can train.

So, it does limit it.

Only in so far as you cannot train at 100%, but there is little difference between 95% and 100% except for more fatigue and nervous energy lost with the heavier set.

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As you mentiond, you are unfamiliar with it. It is no more of a cookie cutter program than Shieko or any other program

Which is why I don't reccommend sticking strictly to a Sheiko program. It must be modified.

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You don't appear to be an advocate of speed/power training. You don't apear to see much point its effectiveness in the pwoerlfits.

Why does it work for those using the West Side Method or the complex training program that I perform?

I bet I get a shitstorm here, but I don't think it works for Westside. You have to look at what you compare Westside to before you note that it "works". Where Westsiders compete, the trend is to not apply a lot of planning and number-crunching to your training. So, I feel that alot of people end up just lifting heavy weight whenever they feel like it (within limits, of course). So, compared to that, yes, WSB is an improvement. But if you look at how the Westside program is constructed and compare it to the research in Supertraining or any of the Russian texts, it is not what is optimal for high level athletes.

On the other hand, if you look at the super-dominant lifters in the IPF (who also have a good number of people that train using the WSB principles), they all train in a manner that is similar in principle to the Sheiko style programs. The Russian and Ukrainian teams, dominant German lifters, Bulgarian lifters, as well as Brian Siders, Wade Hooper, John Brown, and soon to me myself all train in a similar manner.

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Why am I able to pull in the 600 lbs range and never deadlfit prior to a meet. I have a 617 lb record deadlift in the NSCA New Mexico State Record and a 595 in the USPF CA State Records. They are public files.

I think the question you should be asking yourself is why can't you deadlift 700.

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I provided you with some great reading sources: Supertraining, Fundamentals of Special Strength, Dr Judd's Bench Press book that goes into Jim Williams' program (which supports you volume belief).

Tom McLaughlin's Bench Press More Now, Dr John Garhammer's research article on power outputs of Olympic lifters and powerlifters.

You make assertiions with your depth jumps provide more power output than Olympic pulls, etc. However, you have yet to provide any research on anything so far.

So, one of my request is (as I did) provide some research data that supports some on the information you have provided...or some empricial data article.

I don't believe that is an unreasonable request.

I told you outright that I had no "research" for the depth jump comment, however, when I think about the formula for mechanical power and the mechanics of a depth jump, I have a hard time believing that it isn't true. I will take your word for it for now, but I'll also look into it some more myself.

As far as providing you with research on my other beliefs... it's nothing you don't have access to yourself. I have read Supertraining, translated texts by Roman, Medvedyev, Verkoshansky, and others. I have also read a translated version of Boris Sheiko's book, Doc's book, and Hartmann/Tunnemann's book called Fitness and Strength Training for All Sports. I have read all of Louie Simmon's articles and even have several of the Westside tapes. I also have read countless other articles about powerlifting in various other mediums. But beyond that, I have crunched the numbers on many, many programs of varying styles and analyzed them from many different angles. I have trained approximately 20 people for specific events, all with good results (some to soon be high level national competitors). I also have 11 years of experience myself, which is nothing to scoff at. I am well read on this. I won't provide you with specific references for all my statements mostly because I don't remember them all off the top of my head. I guess you'll just have to take my word that I'm not lying.

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

I have found that my deadlift goes up the same or more as my squat without having to do deadlifts at all.

form...style and technique...

one can never not deadlift and pull his best with other lifts alone...
....form,...style and technique being a large part of any lift, if you do not do it and practice it your best cannot be achieved..

rdc

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

I'm with RDC on the need to practice form/technique. However, I think some cycles of 'non-deadlift' can help.

Tooting my own horn here, I wrote in the late '80s of doing a cycle of OLY-style high pulls to belt height from the floor, 4x6 or 5x5, and 4x8 sets of incline shrugs, occasionally varying the bench height to correspond with different stages within the DL. I had my college team on this and it worked well.

This info was in an article in the Lope Delk series in PLUSA, and appears in greater detail on pp 48-49 of my TEXAS-STYLE PL book.

Re: form...style and technique...

Rickey Dale Crain wrote:
one can never not deadlift and pull his best with other lifts alone...
....form,...style and technique being a large part of any lift, if you do not do it and practice it your best cannot be achieved..

rdc

Ricky,

You are mistaken in you belief that one cannot deadlift his/her best without deadlifting or practicing the movement often.

Bill Starr proved that with his no approach to the deadlift, pulling an American Record. Ernie Picket did as well.

My deadlift went up 80 lbs by not deadlifting.

Mike Tronski (Chino Hills, CA) added 65 lbs to his deadlift by only deadlifting once every two to three weeks. Mike should pull beyond 600 at the Feb 16, USPF American Cup PL in Los Angeles.

Phil Rivera (Albuquerque, New Mexico) added 40 lbs to his deadlift by only deadlifting once a month.

Mike Addelman (Albuquerque, New Mexico) pulled his first 700 plus deadlift by cutting back on his deadlift training.

Chip McCain only deadlifted once a week. Chip alternated each week of light and heavy deadlifts.

So, the idea that your best can never be achieved without constant practice has holes in it. The empirical data of real life tells us otherwise.

Certainly, some practice is needed to learn the movement. And some lifters that the lift does not come natural to, need some practice.

However, in the ranking of skilled movement, the deadlift is at the bottom of the pile.

The majority of liftest quickly learn the movement because of the simplicity of the movement.

Kenny Croxdale

best

Keeny

i did not say one could not break reocrds...i said one could not do their best...

if you truly believe this then you believe form is not important.....is a VERY SMALL PART OF THE LIFT....AND PERFECT FORM CAN BE ACHIEVED WITH LITTLE OR NO PRACTICE AND CAN BE MAINTAINED WITH LITTLE OR NO PRACTICE......

ONE WOULD NOT BELIEVE THIS IN ANY OTHER SPORT...SO WHY OURS???????????

RDC

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

RDC is 100% right, Kenny. You're neglecting form and technique nuances that will limit you from doing your best. That's what I was trying to get at earlier. If you can't handle pulling every week, then you're pulling too heavy or too much volume or both. Something does need to change and it isn't that you need to stop deadlifting. As many of us have said -- no other sport presumes to achieve high results without ever practicing the competitive exercise, so why would we be different?

Re: best

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Rickey Dale Crain wrote:
Keeny

i did not say one could not break reocrds...i said one could not do their best...

Ricky,

And what I am saying is that one can do their best.

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if you truly believe this then you believe form is not important.....is a VERY SMALL PART OF THE LIFT....AND PERFECT FORM CAN BE ACHIEVED WITH LITTLE OR NO PRACTICE AND CAN BE MAINTAINED WITH LITTLE OR NO PRACTICE......

ONE WOULD NOT BELIEVE THIS IN ANY OTHER SPORT...SO WHY OURS???????????

I never stated that form was not important. Evidently, you did not read my previous post.

Kenny Croxdale

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Mike T. wrote:
RDC is 100% right, Kenny. You're neglecting form and technique nuances that will limit you from doing your best. That's what I was trying to get at earlier. If you can't handle pulling every week, then you're pulling too heavy or too much volume or both. Something does need to change and it isn't that you need to stop deadlifting. As many of us have said -- no other sport presumes to achieve high results without ever practicing the competitive exercise, so why would we be different?

Mike,

Smiling We've been throuh this.

Kenny Croxdale

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

I think the mental conditioning of your OL lifter is GENERALLY higher than in PL, mainly because it takes more guts to do what they do. As a consequence OL lifters find deadlift much easier mentally than pure PL guys. and this is a major component of deadlift.

Re: ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadli

ROCKYTILSON wrote:
You know, deadlifting, frequency, training ideology is heavily debated. I dont think there is any one great formula that works.

I know that most great deadlifters, were already inherently strong at that lift without training it or very little to begin with.

Research would indicate that you can have a great deadlift and NEVER deadlift. There is a study that was done at the 1968 Olympics where the weightlifters were tested concerning their overall strength/ speed with regards to only weightlifting movements.

What was found, is that the weightlifters JUMPED Higher than the HIGH JUMPERS and that the weightlifters were FASTER than the sprinters at the Olympic training center. WOW!!

What this also tells us, is that because the Olympic lifts, snatch and clean and jerk, and associated training movements of these athletes yields greater watts of energy than squatting or just deadlifting alone, that there is great benefit to doing these movements.

I think that by just adding GOOD MORNINGS and Working some hang cleans, power cleans, and doing some secondary pull movements (as in the snatch at the secondary stage, would greatly enhance a persons ability to move greater weight in the deadlift.

It is said, that weightlifters that can clean in the 300-350 range, and never deadlift, can pull 600 lbs deadlift without any problem, and yet never deadlift. hmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

I believe the watts generated during a deadlift is under 800 watts. Adversly, the watts generated in the secondary pull of the snatch is over 3,000 watts. Even at lighter weight, the benefit ratio is ENORMOUS.

Something to think about guys Smiling

ROCKY TILSON

Indy Power Team

Rocky, I can only wholeheartedly agree with your statements regarding OL and DL's.

To me, the combination deadlifts and for example hangcleans is so incredibly positive/complementary.....I only have to deadlift once each fortnight alternated with some clean/snatch sessions inbetween to see the best DL gains.

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

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Research would indicate that you can have a great deadlift and NEVER deadlift. There is a study that was done at the 1968 Olympics where the weightlifters were tested concerning their overall strength/ speed with regards to only weightlifting movements.

What was found, is that the weightlifters JUMPED Higher than the HIGH JUMPERS and that the weightlifters were FASTER than the sprinters at the Olympic training center. WOW!!

While I'm sure Oly lifters are indeed the cat's whiskers, this often-quoted study appears to be fictional. No one can find the original and the people said to have done it don't remember having done so.

I like deadlifting, so I deadlift.

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

Well i laid out my opinion in another thread earlier... but i deadlifted 655 in my first comp with never having pulled a deadlift before. i did squats and heavy hack squats, heavy bent rows, t bar rows, shrugs, and occasionally a rack pull from mid thigh-probably never that heavy, all for reps. My technique sucked, i pulled it on my toes and just about stiff legged it, but i pulled it none the less. so can u build a good pull without deadlifts? of course u can. will learning technique help, u betcha. but once u have pulled and engrained ur form, u shouldnt need to pull as often.

ROCKYTILSON's picture

ADD 50 lbs to your deadlift and "NEVER" deadlift!!

I will tell you guys this much. Im going back to my olympic training. Push presses, Power cleans, Clean and Jerk and Snatch.

I was stronger before when I was doing them.

ROCKY TILSON

Indy Power Team

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